To think my 3 year old son should be able to dress as Elsa?

[stealthbanana]

My husband and I have just had an enormous fight about this...

My 3.5 year old DS loves Frozen, and has asked for me to buy him (a) a frozen dress up (ie an Elsa or anna costume) and (b) some
“Elsa and anna shoes” (a pair of sneakers one of his nursery classmates has, white with pics of elsa and anna on it).

I’ve just talked to DH about it and his response ha surprised me - he’s said he’s absolutely opposed to my son having an Elsa dress as “it’s opening up his gender identity”. We have a 1 year old daughter and I have said that I don’t think he would be as annoyed if she dresses up as eg fireman Sam and he said that “princesses are different I don’t think that being a fireman is a bad thing”. I asked about the shoes and he said he would be ok if they were “boys shoes”. I had to stop the conversation as was worried it would become a proper argument - he was very angry.

AIBU to think that it’s a total non big deal that a 3 year old wants to dress up as a princess and has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity as an adult?

@Surviving1

Exactly. DH basically said he didn’t want to send his son into battle against the patriarchy unarmed. That’s what all men have encountered whilst growing up.....the male gauntlet.

@LaurieMarlow - are you purposefully missing the point?

husband explains that the Patriarchy makes life unpleasant for boys who wear dresses

So if you support that and model that, you’re telling him he has to conform.

What if his masculine identity doesn’t line up with old school patriarchal norms? He’s screwed either way then. Either he represses his true self, distances himself from you or even decides he can’t possibly be a man, therefore must transition.

The very least you can do as a parent is create an environment where they’re free to express who they really are.

this is amazing

I loved it. It’s a beautiful video.

The little boy isn’t being a girl, he’s being Elsa. Big difference. The dad is supporting him

That is how a real man behaves

That’s what all men have encountered whilst growing up.....the male gauntlet.

Really? I certainly haven’t nor have a great number of my male friends. I have however come across men who are pro-patriarchy and hide behind similar excuses that your husband is using.

DH basically said he didn’t want to send his son into battle against the patriarchy unarmed.

But if said son doesn’t meet the patriarchy’s very narrow definition of what it is to be male, you’re setting him up for unhappiness or estrangement from his closest family.

@Moonmelodies

If it's ok to put him in a dress and pretend to be female, would it be ok for him to paint his face to pretend to be a black character?

He isn’t pretending to be female

He wants to pretend to be Elsa!!! Big difference

And yes it’s ok if he wanted to dress as Tiana or Esmeralda...cos it’s fucking dress up and he’s pretending to be a character not a woman!

Stop the thread! Ori’s husband has spoken.

That video might well lead to problems in several years, tbh

That video might well lead to problems in several years, tbh

Would you say the same if it was a mum and a daughter doing Spider-Man moves?

Honestly I think videos like that are embarrassing for all parties so yes. But not really the point I was making.

Videos of parents and children having fun together?

Well, straying away a bit but yes if you want my honest response.

Because even just really innocent family photos have a certain level of intimacy about them and not everyone is comfortable sharing that.

But I can see you just want to pull faces and be right on and never mind how the child might actually feel.

Because for all some of you say you are on the child’s side and how awful it is that OPs DH has put his foot down, I wonder how you’d respond if your son did say actually mum I’m getting hell at school because of that video of me and dad.

Would you pull a face at him and say ‘what if it was you wearing a Spider-Man costume?’

Or listen?

I know the point you’re trying to make

You think it’s embarrassing for the son when he’s older.

Well guess what, by challenging attitudes like yours, we could prevent people finding things like this embarrassing

It’s an incredibly sexist attitude to think that boys can’t play dress up as a girls.

I mean some people will say the can’t play with dolls and push a pushchair. I mean oh no! What if he grows up to be a dad?!

Ori38's husband is correct in many ways as he describes what it is like to grow up as a boy. That doesn't make it right though nor does it mean we have to accept it. As parent's, as society, we have options in how we raise our children.

I grew up (male born in the sixties) and experienced all that macho bullshit and as I child I knew no better. Fights and bullying were a daily occurence. Boys who were not masculine were especially bullied, physically and emotionally. Boys were also indoctrinated into a very dangerous ideology that sexual success with girls was directly related to their status and ego. That's how boys thought in my day and they may well still do so. That doesn't make it right though nor should we as parents and adults just surrender to it as the way it is.

Boys indoctrinating each other with those sorts of ideologies is what leads them to grow into men who think that fighting defines them positively, men that view women as sexual objects, men who resent women and develop misogynistic attitudes when women don't always give them the sex that their fragile egos depend on, men who bully and victimise gay or non-masculine men because that's what they learnt to do as children.

We don't need to leave children to their own devices to decide for themselves what's right and what's wrong. As adults we can choose to do a better job at raising children than previous generations did.

Ori38 your husband sounds awful.
We have a son and we're teaching him to respect individuality and to not bully people ( physically or mentally) for being different. My DH is one of the biggest feminists I know and is exactly the type of man want my son to grow up to be like.

Threads like these never fail to depress me. It's bad enough we have men out there enforcing patriarchal views but to see women doing it makes me extra depressed.

Maybe but I’m not using my son as a political tool in that way and I wouldn’t assume any child, male or female, would be OK with a video of them dressed up dancing around when they are too little to know any better. Horrible thing to do and takes advantage of their innocence.

@Ori38

I talked about this thread with my DH to see what his response would be if one of our sons wanted to wear a princess dress. He basically said "no way. It wouldn't happen."

When I asked him why, he said that it's a tough, competitive world being a boy, and that boys often have to fight either physically, or using their wits to maintain their status in a group. Boys are competitive - they spot weaknesses (masculine weaknesses) very quickly in other boys and expose them.

Boys are more prone to a stringent "group mentality" which operates a merciless primal pecking order based upon each individual's usefulness to the group. Boys form groups based upon a hierarchical structure, underpinned by masculine status values. If a boy demonstrates all the animalistic "masculine" traits expected by his peers on a primal level he will fit into the group and hold his own. He will be accepted - but he must be able to maintain his ranking within the group by not displaying behaviors or attitudes that set him aside and cause him to be forcibly ejected - sometimes violently by his peers.

If his son is taught that it's ok to be male and dress like a girl, or hold stereotypically "girly" values, that boy would have a rough time. He would be picked on, bullied, mentally harassed.

DH also said that ALL men have had to run this male gauntlet whilst growing up, and you would want your son to "toughen up" in preparation for it when he inevitably has to do the same at school. It's a value system that has it's roots in survival - nothing to do with sexism or not being liberal. All about male acceptance of one another, and status ranking.

So positively primal on all levels! This is how the male thinks!!! And behaves.............

And if your harpenden to grow up small and physically weak? Wanting to talk about his emotions? Become a paediatric nurse? Be gay? Love dance? Will your oh so wise DH encourage him to suppress his true self leading to all sorts of MH issues or disown him to protect his own place in the pack?

I believe the best way for my son to 'run the male gauntlet' is for him to be confident in his own self, empowered in his choices, know that he is supported and loved unconditionally by his family in making those choices. For him to be self-assured and free to love himself for who he is. Essentially be happy.

I do not feel that suppressing his expression or interests as a toddler, making him feel uncomfortable or wrong for choosing certain things, will really achieve that goal.

Playing with a pushchair is very different to making a video of a boy in a princess dress dancing and putting it on the internet.

Also whilst we're playing my husband says he said ds can wear what he likes, a person, no one cares if he pretends to be a dinosaur and is @Ori38 husband a werewolf?

Maybe but I’m not using my son as a political tool in that way

Challenging harmful masculine norms that don’t do men any favours either isn’t using you child as a political tool. Though I can see why it suits you to try and position it that way.

The most important thing you can do as a parent is create an environment where your children feel it’s okay to be themselves. Every time you give in to sexist norms, you undermine that a little bit.

I believe the best way for my son to 'run the male gauntlet' hmm is for him to be confident in his own self, empowered in his choices, know that he is supported and loved unconditionally by his family in making those choices. For him to be self-assured and free to love himself for who he is. Essentially be happy.

Let’s have this on a placard

@LaurieMarlow

Despite everything I feel occasionally hopeful for the next generation of our beautiful boys and girls.

My son is very clear that there are no girl things or boy things. He thinks it’s stupid that people think there are.

His best friends - mix of boys and girls - think that too.

No apologies from any of the parents for very deliberately teaching that.

Alongside this - I’ve taught DS that being mean because of how someone looks is not on and that if anyone does that to him it’s a sure sign they’re a total loser. Pretty sure his friend’s parents have done the same.

The best way for a boy to navigate maleness is giving him the tools to deconstruct the dumbass boxes gender keeps us in.

When ds was 5, his sister then aged 3 had a 'twirly' party dress. Ds asked me for one, so I made hima twirly party dress, and he loved it, danced round in it etc. I have a lovely photo of him and dd together twirling.
ds is now 17, and macho!