To think my friend is damaging her DD?

[wineandfajitas]

My friend has a 7 year old DD, she is a single mum and we are very close, we see each other every day so I spend a lot of time with her and her DD.

They seem to have a really, for lack of a better word, banterish relationship. They are always bantering with each other and it's just nothing I've ever seen before.

My friend does discipline her DD if necessary and she seems to respect her. She is a good mum in all other ways but it's just this constant banter. I find it strange.

Her DD is only 7 and already very sarcastic and uses insults as humour. They seem to just take the piss out of each other and play fight for fun. She does kiss and hug her daughter and tell her she loves her but 70 percent of their relationship is just constant banter as if they're friends.

AIBU to think this may affect her DD in later life and that it isn't normal?

Banter should be funny, what you're describing is just random insults. Are the examples bad, or did you mean really it's all just calling each other stinky? Either way, if the girl is happy and getting on well it's none of your business. We always had a jokey relationship in both our families, (not calling them names, actual jokes, but humour varies so it's similar), it's just a way of playing with a parent and not an issue.

Totally agree with @WhatTheD1ckens and maybe it’s because I’m a TA. Children that speak with their parents this way then try it on teachers and find themselves in trouble. Parents then say “ Oh he’s a bit cheeky but he’s only joking.”

Mother and daughter insult each other for the laughs= mumsnet verdict of great parenting.

@WhatTheD1ckens

I haven’t RTFT because yet again the first couple of pages have made me question why I’m even on MN. Yes you asked for opinions, but I don’t understand why people have to give their opinions with a side helping of venom. Maybe you’ve touched a nerve because what you’re describing is something these other posters do themselves.

I actually agree with you, OP. Maybe it’s old fashioned but parents should set an example, and there are other ways of having a laugh than insulting eachother (a very low form of humour in any context). As an ex-teacher I’ve found that this can translate to an over-familiarity with other adults or ‘authority figures’ (for want of a better word), and that this can affect motivation and productivity. For example: if a student sees a teacher on the ‘same level’ as them, someone to have ‘banter’ with, then they don’t take the teacher seriously. This means that (in the worst case scenario) they don’t follow instructions if they don’t feel like it, don’t care about the consequences of not doing their homework, argue back when checked on a certain aspect of their behaviour etc.

I think the world needs a certain degree of hierarchy (parents and kids, teachers and kids, employers and employees etc.), and that not having boundaries can actually be damaging. How will kids who talk to their parents on the same level as their peers ever learn a respectful and appropriate way of operating in the real world?

How does any of that apply to a child who, the OP openly states, has boundaries, is respectful to other people (the OP and school) and who gets told off when appropriate?

@lilgreen I'm also a TA. I have a similar type of relationship with DD and so does OH.

Her school reports have only just stopped mentioning how shy and quiet she is. She is always described in them and at parents meetings as kind, always listens , hard working, polite. One teacher actually told me she uses her as an example of politeness to other children. Parents of her friends also love to have her around because she's so easy going and keeps their kids busy, she often stays for hours and hours and gets invited back.

Banter without boundaries would cause problems. Lack of boundaries would cause problems even without the banter. That doesn't seem the case from what OP says.

That’s great in your case, but not children are able to differentiate.

Btw I don’t equate jokes/banter with insults.

@lilgreen

That’s great in your case, but not children are able to differentiate.

Clearly this child can though, she behaves appropriately with the OP (who she sees every day) and at school. l

WhatTheD1ckens, if you have read Op's comments , you would have realised that this child is not someone you describe. She banters with her mum, but polite to the OP. Clearly knows the boundary.

The child in the OP though seems to be , as OP said she's quiet and polite when interacting with her. Ofc, not all children can differentiate, but the ones that do are not being "harmed" or heading straight for an ASBO by having that type of relationship with their parents.

I've actually found that most children that can't or won't differentiate also barely have any boundaries and discipline. The banter/insults/sarcasm is just part of a bigger problem.

My dad was humourous. I think it actually toughens a kid up. He called my sister tin ribs and me ginger lol. It made us laugh. He used to say really daft stuff to us and prank us with little things. I remember him driving down a country lane with me and my best friend in the back. It was dark. He said there's a story that when you go past this gate up here all the windows in the car come down. He pressed the button to make the windows come down. We screamed. He laughed.

My mum on the other hand. She never did hugs or affection. That's where my issues lie. My mum is absolutely useless at kindness. She pisstakes or puts you down. So therefore she's damaging.

If it's done with laughter and hugs are exchanged and there's a good bond ofcourse it won't hurt her when she is older.

It is just different. I had a pupil whose relationship with her mum was a bit like this. She also used to educate her dd about environmental issues and talk to her in a more adult way. She was unconventional in her approach but it worked fine. They were very close and the little girl was very polite to other adults and did well at school.

The examples you give of tough love are actually examples of being a good parent! Encouraging kids to not over react to squabbles or small accidents is exactly the right thing to do. You obviously don't have any experience and are a very different character to your 'friend'. In fact you sound really judgemental.

@gumball37

Wow. I can't even see this as an issue... But this is my house.

3yo: can I have a drink
Me: no
3yo: why
Me: cause you stink like poop
Both: laughing

Then she gets her drink 🤷

How childish

• gumball37 Wow. I can't even see this as an issue... But this is my house.

3yo: can I have a drink
Me: no
3yo: why
Me: cause you stink like poop
Both: laughing

Then she gets her drink 🤷
How childish hmm*

The 3 year old is a child

@xolotltezcatlopoca and @lyralalala:
The child the poster talks about is still only 7. The behaviour I have described still has a lot of time to manifest with other adults or authority figures, and even then will possibly only manifest in situations where the child doesn’t ‘like’ the adult or doesn’t ‘agree with’ what the adult is asking them to do. Or it may not manifest at all- some children can differentiate and follow the respectful example of others in society. But if her mum ever needs to put her foot down or step in to deal with something more serious, she may find that she doesn’t have enough gravitas to really get through to her daughter as her daughter sees her as a peer.

In fact, my own friend’s children see her as more of a friend than a parent, and although they were all great in primary school, the eldest (DD13) has had run-ins with several secondary teachers. She has also been involved in some very dangerous behaviour online, which my friend has found herself powerless to stop as she doesn’t have enough authority with her daughter. They have a nice relationship in some senses, lots in common and they have a good laugh, but my friend now needs outside agencies to get through to her daughter and keep her safe. There are Of course several other factors at work in this, but I think the more laid-back parent/child relationship has definitely played a part.

@WhatTheD1ckens The mum has already shown she can put her foot down. She also uses the 1, 2, 3 count when she needs too and the OP says the child respects that.

Whilst, as you say, it could manifest, in my experience parents who are going to let their child away with rudeness or zero boundaries already have started doing so by 7.

It's far more likely given the OP's comments about how the child's parent deals with playground squabbles and falling over that the OP just has zero child experience and is being incredibly judgemental. The OP sees this child every day and has never seen her behave like that to anyone except her Mum and in her home; that suggests to me the mother is guiding the child's personality into when and where it's appropriate to use that kind of humour.

There is a case for letting children pick themselves up when they fall, and I’m sure the OP’s friend is quite rightly doing a bit of this as a conscious decision to make her child resilient. But I think some of what has been described by the OP and some PPs is actually lazy parenting, and I’m shocked that so many MNers are lauding this as a shining example of instilling a load of life skills. If a parent stays in bed all day and leaves their children to get on with it, the children might learn to make themselves lunch. This is great in a way- independence! But did the parent set out to make their children independent? No, they just wanted to stay in bed. And is this ‘good parenting’ when you look at the bigger picture? Of course not! The children won’t make a nutritious lunch, they won’t learn to tidy up after themselves properly and they’ll probably bicker and fight with eachother from start to finish.

Being a teacher as well as a parent has given me a massive insight into how lazy parenting can adversely affect a child. I think the signs of this can be very subtle, so those people saying “I did this and my kids are alright!!”- well maybe it has affected them in ways that aren’t obvious yet. Or maybe your children are rude to teachers but your standard of ‘rude’ is very different to that of other adults and you just think it’s funny. Or maybe they’ve learned not to be rude from role models other than you.

I am generalising a lot here and I know that there are lots of amazing proactive parents who do take a specific approach to make their children resilient and independent, but I definitely think there are a lot of people who just use this as a handy justification for being lazy.

It's called code-switching - knowing to speak in different ways in different contexts. Children might need a bit of a prompt to learn it, but it's a useful life skill.

Of all the things to worry about in the world, this really isn't one of them

I really don’t see any of these examples as lazy parenting!

They have no relevance to the example you’ve given either. You’ve jumped quite a few steps to get to that conclusion!

@MiddleClassProblem yeah to be fair I have extrapolated quite a bit. It’s something I’m quite passionate about but not a perfect fit with this situation.

climbs down from soapbox

[quote WhatTheD1ckens]@MiddleClassProblem yeah to be fair I have extrapolated quite a bit. It’s something I’m quite passionate about but not a perfect fit with this situation.

climbs down from soapbox[/quote]
I’m glad you realised how far your extrapolation has gone. You may be passionate, as many of us who work with children are, but there is nothing in the OP’s posts that suggest her friend is a lazy parent whatsoever. Simply that she doesn’t parent how the OP thinks she would parent if she had children.

@lyralalala yep. But I do maintain that parents being friends with their children is not a good idea, and that insults are a low form of humour which don’t set a good example.

Having humour and sarcasm in a relationship is healthy, and it is highly beneficial for children to be exposed to a range of emotions and responses to prepare them for different people in the 'real world'

I work with children who have been expelled from multiple schools etc, and trust me, the sort of parenting OP describes is absolutely fine. It will not produce a bad child.

[quote WhatTheD1ckens]@lyralalala yep. But I do maintain that parents being friends with their children is not a good idea, and that insults are a low form of humour which don’t set a good example.[/quote]
Parents only being friends with their children is not a good idea. Parents who have a good relationship with their child, and are ultimately always the parent so can always create a boundary or discipline them is absolutely fine.

Humour is always going to be one of those things that depends on your child and your personality. I have 6 kids and use that kind of humour with 1 of them because it fits with his nature. Teaching him when it’s appropriate to use that humour, and that not everyone likes it, is part of parenting him.