*Trigger Warning* My MIL is a rape apologiser

[Gurtcha]

Just that really. Yesterday afternoon she was talking about her best friend’s (of 30+ years) DD, MIL’s god daughter. Unfortunately, MILBF’s DD was attacked and seriously sexually assaulted last weekend. Whilst telling us everything that she knew about the incident (thats something else - it was really not her place to tell all), she added that she wasn’t surprised it happened considering the way her god daughter dresses when out of an evening.

Mine and DHs jaw hit the floor, DH started stammering and I’m ashamed to say I hit the roof. I can usually tune out her mindless ignorance on most things but this time she got under my skin. I told her it was disgusting that she would defend an abuser of someone she claims to care about, that her attitudes were responsible for the suicides of victims that never get justice and that she needs to educate herself as she is clearly in the privileged position of being a woman that has never had to experience sexual abuse. I upped and left at that point. I did raise my voice, it’s true. I was totally disgusted and I still feel sick whenever I think about it. I’ve not spoken to her since, neither has DH. He’s seething.

The thing is, we have three young DDs 12, 8 and 3. AIBU to never want them to spend enough time with her for her views to become known to them? She can barely keep her opinions to herself at the best of times and I’m so scared that one day, my DDs will feel they have a good enough relationship with her to confide in her at a later date, if god forbid, anything should happen to them.

@pictish very wise words.

In a more general sense, if you’re going to live your life taking such exception to every person who does not share the same opinions or have the sufficient knowledge or experience to equal your own in order to form those opinions, you’re going to struggle.

Will you refuse to go to work? Fall out with a friend in your social circle? Boycott your local supermarket? Refuse to send your children to school in case they hear something untrue or misguided?
Course not.

If you’re looking for an excuse to hold your mil at arm’s length then I guess this could be it. Otherwise, I don’t think it’s necessary.

@ilikemethewayiam

I totally agree. There;s the attack and there's the attitude of people around you. It's disgusting that people still feel this way and vocalise it. It is the reason why victims don't report of talk about their ordeal with friends and family. People that victim blame are part of the problem.

@Gurtcha I agree with @FizzyGreenWater she makes a lot of sense. You have done nothing wrong. You were right to hold her to account for her views about her god daughter. Imagine the poor god daughter finding out that her GM is unsurprised that she has been raped due to the clothes she wears when she goes out and also imagine her knowing she tells her story to others.

Maybe your DH can have a word with her as well about her toxic views.

I often find that people with those type of views also have unpleasant opinions regarding racism, disabled people, LGBT etc

Please DO NOT ever apologise for speaking up about victims in this way!

Well done.

I agree she was wrong, and it needed to be challenged.

She isn't responsible for the suicides of rape victims though, or for them not getting justice. We need to stop telling women they are responsible for the disgusting things men do, or for the broken system that allows them to get away with it.

I don't think it's a very effective way to challenge ignorance either, it makes you sound melodramatic when in reality your points are valid and important.

Gurtcha, totally at your side.

As your MIL is GM to your Dds, I would have a think about what happens next.

Going off on one and then blanking people rarely creates enlightenment.

When your DH goes round there next Sunday he might be the best person to actually educate her. She will doubtless be huffed that you have not gone, and slag you off as ‘aggressive’ again. This is his cue to calmly say ‘as it happens Mum, I agree with her. As a father if Dds I fear for their safety and I fear for them living in a society where women and girls getting raped is seen as their fault. I am a man, I see many young women in short skirts and skimpy clothes and that has nothing at all to do with the brutal attack of a man who forces himself on a terrified woman. And if I were you, I would keep your opinions very much to yourself because you could be talking to someone who has themselves been assaulted. I very much hope you haven’t said this to anyone else: your BF and GD will be devastated if they hear you have judged her and blamed her”.

And then change the subject. If she persists just say “I was simply explaining to you why Gurthcha and I disagree with your opinion”

I'd not be going next Sunday, nor would the kids, and hopefully not DH. I'd still be very upset and angry at her ignorant, toxic behaviour, so I'd not want to be eating with them, nor playing happy families. I'd definitely be cooling it for a while - as much as anything so MIL got the message that I really don't have to stand for her nonsense, and that my family has my back.

But I'd not be doing anything permanent.

As an aside, does anyone remember the little gem of a judgment whereby a Judge deemed the Accused not guilty, his reasoning being that the victim had been wearing jeans, so if she really didn't want to have sex, there was no way the defendant could have forced her to? That's the kind of toxic, irrational crap women are up against. You can't win.

She sounds horrendous. Sadly, that attitude is all too prevalent. I'd have blown up too but of course, it means you lose the moral high ground somewhat! .

I don't think you need to worry about your DDs though. I think people who grow up close to their grandparents usually do so because the grandparents are incredibly supportive, interested in their DGD's lives and opinions etc. It sounds unlikely that MIL is that kind of grandmother and it's far more likely that as your DDs get older, her relationship with them will become less close.

I'm not sure that you can get people like this and of this age to change their opinions, but I think continuing to challenge might one day make them thing something different and will most likely lead them to realise these types of opinions are not acceptable.

In terms of the GD - of course instinctively we feel like we should respect her privacy. But if she'd been in a car accident, you wouldn't think twice. We bury sexual assaults and while I instinctively understand it, I can't help thinking that's of the problem. Seeing sexual assault as something to be ashamed of.

[I'm fully aware that intellectually we all know that's true and that in most cases any hesitance to bring it up is to spare the trauma of the person who was attacked and, while intellectually I feel it shouldn't be the case, I don't see myself bouncing up to a woman I heard had been assaulted to ask her about it. Just pointing out the slight dichotomy.]

Sadly my MIL has a smilier outlook.

When then 15 year old DD had her bottom pinched and her breast grabbed walking down the school corridor she told us we were making a mountain out of a molehill and it wasn't an assault at all just boys being boys.
Fortunately the school didn't hold her beliefs.

@pictish - I'm just referring to this Sunday!

OP spoke up, an argument ensued. OP believes she is right. Her DH backs her. MIL has historically caused issues, and OP describes her as obnoxious, always having to be right, unlikely to apologise.

The blow up happens.

MIL gets in touch. Not to apologise, but (in presumably true to form style) to have the final say, to emphasise that she's been hard done by but also to ensure that she is still in the driving seat. She expects them Sunday. By the way, I am so hurt. Etc.

If both OP and DH want to get the point across that no, it's not ok, we weren't in the wrong, you were - even if they don't really expect an apology - then to basically fall in with dutifully going back to MIL's on Sunday is exactly the wrong message to send. Even worse would be DH and children going, because that creates the impression that HE'S ok with MIL but OP isn't - and he's voted with his feet.

You don't reward bad behaviour, in a nutshell. Thanks for the hyperbole, but I would think it's perfectly possible (and indeed it absolutely should be, if it isn't, there's a lot wrong) for DH to be able to say to his mother - 'No, I don't think we'll be over Sunday. Me and Gurtcha are still really upset by what you said, too. It's not acceptable, and if you really think that we should be the ones apologising for making you feel bad then we maybe need some time apart right now.'

Massive family feud? No, unless being able to draw a boundary with what you will and won't accept counts as that.

"Sit down and talk with MIL about sexual assault" What color is the sky in your utopian world? That battle axe is on the defensive already and wouldn't accept anything less but a groveling apology from her DIL and hell would freeze over before that happens

@XingMing I had great times, but the fashions of the day were very different to the near-lingerie stripper clothing that seems popular now

And? Remarks like that puts you firmly on the apologist list.

@OoohTheStatsDontLie I can see why you want a break but I do think that cutting an immediate family member out completely for one comment may be a bit harsh

and everyone else harping on about this being about "one comment" "one opinion"

Rape apology isn't "one comment", it's a harmful belief & opinion that women invite rape and sexual assault and it is damaging to society, and it plays a huge part as to why rape and sexual assault is under reported and under convicted.

@XingMing Not surprised is not the same as blaming the victim or excusing the perpetrator.

Not surprised because of the clothing she was wearing IS ABSOLUTELY victim blaming and victim blaming lessens the blame of the rapist.

She isn't responsible for the suicides of rape victims though, or for them not getting justice. We need to stop telling women they are responsible for the disgusting things men do, or for the broken system that allows them to get away with it

While she's not personally responsible for these things, clearly, the attitudes that she's spreading are in part responsible. A lot of rape victims feel the shame not only of the attack but often even more by the way they were treated afterwards: not being believed; being held partially responsible; being ridiculed etc. As it's everyday people who sit on juries, how are we going to change the justice system if we don't change the mindset of everyday people.

Of course they don't commit the rapes. Of course it's rapists that are fully responsible for their crimes but prevailing culture of course helps shape the climate where these people think their crimes are somehow forgiveable. Which is why we have to challenge these attitudes every single time. Well done OP.

“ While she's not personally responsible for these things, clearly, the attitudes that she's spreading are in part responsible. A lot of rape victims feel the shame not only of the attack but often even more by the way they were treated afterwards: not being believed; being held partially responsible; being ridiculed etc. As it's everyday people who sit on juries, how are we going to change the justice system if we don't change the mindset of everyday people.‘

True...but no mindset is ever going to be changed by melodrama, overreaction, going no contact, withholding children or causing a bloody feud over a facile comment from your mother in law. It’s juvenile.

I'm sure Mommy in Law Dearest was just 'telling it as she sees it'. . . and is used to doing that without ever suffering any blowback from her poisonous tripe.

If DH goes with the kids without you, MIL has won. Either nobody goes or you at least keep the kids home.

True...but no mindset is ever going to be changed by melodrama, overreaction, going no contact, withholding children or causing a bloody feud over a facile comment from your mother in law. It’s juvenile

Which is why I haven't suggested doing any of those things. My comments have all been directed at the apologists. If your views never get challenged, you never change. Other people have come up with very reasonable ways of dealing with this which don't involve melodrama or any of those things you list.

I agree with pictish. My FIL has dubious opinions and I used to get very upset about it at family gatherings - the only person this hurt was me (and I didn't change his opinions). Now I just conversationally challenge them without getting upset. Your MIL's views are outdated and wrong but going NC, as is often advised on here, is extreme, IMO.

It’s not just an opinion though is it. An opinion is ‘I don’t like your choice of wallpaper’ or ‘I think courgettes are the food of the devil.’ The ‘opinion’ that what a woman wears invites rape is a statement intended with malice.

By your logic, I wonder if we can say then, that racists and homophobes are just voicing their opinions and we should accept it and move on for fear of being ‘melodramatic’ and OTT. Is describing someone as the N word just old fashioned and outdated? Or is it hate speech? There’s no difference in my mind. What my MIL said was designed to degrade and demean and her ‘opinion’ has the potential to be just as damaging to people she knows as well as society as a whole. It’s not just an opinion it’s a dangerous lack of moral value and no, I don’t want my children to be influenced by that. I have however, taken heart at the helpful PPs who have reassured me that my DDs are very unlikely to be influenced by her behaviour at all.

And as an aside, it is not possible to have a calm chat with the intention of educating her. This is not the first time we have disagreed on something, the instance I’m thinking about was personally very hurtful and it rendered me speechless at the time. She’s never been sorry for that and she knows how much she hurt me because she’s been told but she also said ‘it’s just my opinion’. So no, I shan’t be talking about this with her again.

'It's just my opinion, MIL, that you should shut your gob. Preferably permanently, but temporarily could act as a much needed respite from your inane drivel.'

Could possibly cause her to have conniptions on the spot.

Sadly a lot of women take the view that women have brought it on themselves due to the way they dress and act etc.
It's frustrating and maddening that you can't seem to change their views.
Even when you ask, well what about the middle aged conservatively dressed woman who was just walking home from work on a dark winter evening?
Ah well that's different, they say.
Why? Why is it?
They were just unlucky, they say.
Why? Because there wasn't a young woman who was dressed in a short skirt around instead?
Well no, it was just unlucky that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Bang head on wall repeatedly.

I don't think I'd deny my children their grandmother based on this. My Nan had a couple of racist opinions but was essentially a good person and a lovely nan just not very well educated. I was well rounded and well educated enough as a teenager to respectfully challenge her on her opinions and we'd have some good discussion. My mum later told me that my Nan confided in my mum that I made her feel silly and ashamed of herself.
I doubt she truly thinks the man's crime is justified by the woman's clothes. Just that dressing provocatively tends to attract the wrong sort of attention.

Just that dressing provocatively tends to attract the wrong sort of attention.

But it doesn’t.

And “dressing provocatively” seriously?!