AIBU to comment on DH's parenting

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Bit of background. We have two DCs aged 4 and 16 months. We've all been at home since lockdown began (we're in Wales so restrictions haven't been eased as much as in England), DH working full time and me part time. Monday's and Fridays are my days off. Neither DC has been back to any childcare setting yet, so it's been intense, but no where near as bad as I would've pictured if someone told me about this scenario a year ago

DH didn't have the best example of parenting growing up, his dad is a bit of a waste of space and never showed much interest, wasn't very tolerant of children. His DM is quite traditional and adores our DCs but I think there was a fair bit of her bad mouthing FIL to the DCs, arguments and playing favourites with her own daughter. Nevertheless DH has happy memories of his childhood and we have a good relationship with MIL who has seen the DC a fair few times in lockdown for garden visits/walks.

DS age 4 is lovely. In lockdown he's been quite intense and needs an awful lot of input from us, is needy etc, but perfectly manageable compared with a lot of children I hear about. Bad behaviour is usually addressed effectively with either reward charts or consequences eg loss of tablet time.

DH is constantly on at DS, about small things which I think should just be ignored/not made a big deal out of. I'm impatient and won't tolerate things like throwing toys (toys get removed for a set time), nastiness to baby DC, so IMO I'm not letting too much go. Examples of the small things DH will pick at are:

• sitting at the table properly/spilling food. DS tends to sit cross legged or with his knees up, is clumsy and spills a bit of milk from his cereal on his pjs. He doesn't like wet clothes so sometimes will make a fuss. I ignore this, I might suggest he won't spill if he sits properly with his legs under the table, but I don't push it. DH will nag about the spilling, force DS to sit properly, DS ends up getting cross and shouting at DH, DH then gets cross...etc etc. Tiny things like this escalate a lot.
• messing round when he's meant to be getting dressed, deliberately putting things on backwards
• making "too much" noise when baby DS is napping. The noise is just normal kids' noise, baby isn't a great napper so I always try and keep noise to a minimum any way, but the things DH will pick at is eg closing the doors too loudly, dropping toys on the hard floor etc
• general irritating behaviour/pestering. Pulling on DH's clothes, getting his food covered hands on DH's clothes, touching food when we're trying to prepare it for lunch etc

This list is just an example, but the reason it bothers me so much is because it always escalates. DH always comes across as impatient/angry when addressing these types of issues. I can see that DS probably feels micromanaged, so he gets angry, which in turn makes DH more angry, it often ends up in DS in tears.

I suggested the book How to talk...as I read it when I found DS' behaviour really challenging at the start of the year, and I found it really helpful in still addressing some behaviours but in a different way that doesn't escalate into a row/tears. DH said he would read it too but he downloaded it on his kindle about 6 months ago and hasn't got very far.

Sorry, this is so long but if you've stuck with me, the AIBU is that I'm at the point now where I'm fed up and will call DH on the behaviour. So this morning the cereal/milk spilling incident happened (we're talking drips of milk spilled, not a bowl's worth) and when DS inevitably got stroppy with DH for making him sit properly and pushing his chair under the table, and DH responded with "don't you dare shout at me..." I told him he should've just ignored it, who cares that he spills a bit of milk. DH then has a go at me for micro managing him, but I only call him out when I see him micro managing DS. This is all in front of DS by the way, I try so hard not to argue in front of him but in lockdown he is almost always there. The only time he's not is bedtime, so I do tend to call things out when I see them.

DS' mood is often affected for the rest of the day then, if there's been shouting from DH and him crying. It's generally me who then has to handle him as I'm working PT. Plus, I don't really want him to be an unhappy child who's constantly picked at.

So AIBU? Should I just bite my tongue, walk away?

I'm really interested to hear about what others do when it comes to co-parenting.

I think DH is perfectly justified in disliking the behaviours that you've outlined. The difficulty here is that because you're ok with them and DH isn't - DC is getting mixed messages. This inconsistency means that DC doesn't stop doing them so DH gets frustrated over time with being ignored and this behaviour continuing. Also, it sounds like you try to get DC to stop doing these things (by telling him to sit properly for example) but don't follow through when DC ignores you. DH then probably feels like you need him to step in and support you because YOU wanted DC to stop but weren't able to get the desired outcome by yourself.
I think the best course of action is probably for you and DH to decide which behaviours are unacceptable and both of you stop your child doing them. Neither of you are "wrong" but DC shouldn't be getting different messages from each of you.

Also, obviously DH's shouting isn't ok but you can't jut say "stop shouting" - you should address the reason why he's shouting which is that a) he's unable to control DC's behaviour because you undermine it by allowing DC to do those things and b) he has to step in and discipline DC for you because you don't care when DC ignores your requests.

Hmm, I don't actually think either of you are right or wrong per se, just have different ideas of what needs addressing and what you can let go.

Although I don't think the situations need to escalate, I can see why your DH would want to get him sitting at the table properly - if he did, it's less likely he would spill his milk and so wouldn't end up with wet pyjamas. Plus at some point he's going to have to be expected to do that I would have thought? I don't see why a gentle reminder each time (from either of you) would need to escalate though, unless he's now used to getting his own way from you, he almost baulks on principle when his dad asks him to do something different? I guess you need to be on the same page.

And I have to be honest, I wouldn't want sticky fingers all over my clothes all the time or people sticking their fingers in the food when preparing lunch, it's just learning manners. That said, there are easier ways of dealing with it , eg 'do you need to wash your hands?' rather than shouting.

The not sitting right at the table would drive my crazy and i never tolerated it from my kids. I would likely meet dh half way. Agree you support his wish for ds to sit properly at the table and he let's go on the spilling of milk.

I would not tolerate my children shouting at me so woiul have said what your dh did.

The noice level is so subjective. Personally I kept up normal noice levels when mine were babies and needed to sleep as I wanted them to learn to sleep through noice. Could you perhaps try white noice for baby? It is a conversation to have but it is also give and take. I didn't agree with all the things dh felt was important for raising our children and he didn't with mine. So we found a middle way. That's where to go. You may not feel the sitting is important but your do does so support him there and the spilling wil lessen so dh is likely to get less annoyed.

Yanbu OP, you are addressing your DS’s behaviour in an age appropriate way and your DH has unrealistic expectations. The key issue is escalation - it’s fine to ask a child to sit properly, not fine to go nuts if he doesn’t. He really should read ‘How to talk...’ as it’s perfect for this situation! I don’t know how you make him read it though...

I think the situations are subjective, but it’s how they get dealt with that matter.
So there’s nothing wrong with DH gently saying ‘if you sit up, you don’t drip milk, there’s less space for it to fall, see? ’
Him shouting is the problem. That’s not ok.

I also think your husband is right to try and stop these behaviours. Touching other people's food is not ok, touching other people when you've got messy hands and ruining their clothes is not ok. For a toddler, fine, but 4 is old enough to understand. And while I don't get annoyed at kids spilling things and genuine accidents, I do get annoyed at kids spilling things because they are messing about and not sitting properly etc. I want to be able to go out for a meal or to eat at a friends house with them being able to sit relatively nicely for one course and not spill stuff because they're messing about.

I do think he is going about it the wrong way though. I think you need to tell your son to sit nicely, before the meal and praise him for doing so, maybe link it to a reward, and remind him, and then praise him for not making a mess afterwards - hey look, we don't have to clean up as much tonight, we have more time for a game, or something. I'd speak to your husband and say you will support him on the behaviour points if he supports you on the method of achieving them.

Being quiet when the baby is sleeping is harder I think and really tricky for them to remember especially when they're playing

It sounds like you are undermining him in front of ds which is a big parenting mistake. The time to talk about and agree on these things are when he is in bed. Also, you will both be calmer if it's not in the moment.

Regarding the examples. I think, SEN excepted, 4 is old enough to start learning table manners. I used to take my children to a local cafe at that age to practise sitting nicely at the table, talking in low voices, using a knife and fork, etc. They saw it as a treat, maybe you could set up a 'cafe' in your house one day and pretend you are in a 'posh restaurant'.

Pestering and pulling at clothes is another behaviour that should be discouraged by age 4. Teachers get a lot of this and have to gently remind children to wait. They teach signals, such as the sign language for 'wait' and they also get down onto the child's level, look them in the eye and say, please don't pull my clothes, I don't like it. Sounds daft I know, but you can teach this to a child this age, they are of the age where they are beginning to learn how to control their impulses. Then, of course, when you are free, you must say thank you and give them your full attention for whatever it was they wanted.

When he's getting dressed, is it play time or is it get dressed time? You need to be clear that there are some practical jobs that we just need to 'get done' and then we can play. That way he won't faff around getting dressed when you don't want him to. Getting ready for school is often one of those times when you want them to dress swiftly so you're not late.

I'm sure you and your DH can work it out between you because you all want the same thing really, you're going about it different ways and sending confusing messages to the child.

YANBU to discuss parenting with your DH and jointly agree on what behaviour is problematic and what the consequences are- reprimand, punishment etc.

However YABVVVU to do this in front of DS:
I only call him out when I see him micro managing DS. This is all in front of DS by the way, I try so hard not to argue in front of him but in lockdown he is almost always there. The only time he's not is bedtime, so I do tend to call things out when I see them.

What you are doing is actively undermining your DHs authority as a parent, which then encourages your DS to be even more defiant and disobedient, because “mummy” will leap to his defence and tell daddy off. It also means that DS will not have consistency in expectations and discipline. He does x, and daddy says no that’s wrong, but mummy says no daddy YOURE wrong, it’s ok. So DS is left not understanding, was he wrong or not wrong? Is x ok or not ok? This causes confusion in young children and then creates even worse behaviour.

So you need to stop “calling out” your DH in front of your DS. After DS is in bed, sit down and discuss what is good behaviour, what is not and what the consequences will be from BOTH of you without fail. So if you agree that how he sits doesn’t matter, then BOTH of you let it go. But if both of you think touching/playing with food that other people are going to eat does matter and DS should be gently reprimanded and told is bad food safety, then you BOTH follow through with that.

If a child has consistency from his/her parents as to expectations for behaviour and consequences for misbehaviour, their behaviour in turn is much better because they know their boundaries and so can relax.

I have to say I don’t tolerate not sitting at the table properly ! It drives me mad when my cousins kids are all sat with their legs crossed, leaning all over the table, chairs pushed right out so they can barely reach the table, stood (!) on their chair eating etc. just sit down, eat and leave the table!!! Argh! That said, some kids until they’re sort of 8/9 I’ve noticed struggle to sit on their bums with legs down, almost as if it puts them off balance. Noticed this with little boys I know especially. Don’t know why. You could try something like a toddler bumbo, wobble cushion, child seat for the table - will help your ds feel more comfortable, and make meal times easier ?
www.kidly.co.uk/products/bumbo/booster-seat/4065?colour=cool-grey&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl4v4BRDaARIsAFjATPmS2B3omzG1xYE1NK_BeLyxykmyyKmWQ_GHxSeGCSCmZcQ93x70SUMaAieIEALw_wcB

www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/urban-junior-chair-white-00165213/

I get you. My own DH has a tendency to massively stress over the tiniest of things which bugs me no end - he has calmed down a bit, but not without me taking him aside after and just asking him to stop and regard the situation before getting wound up. If he doesn’t want to be seen as the disciplinarian of the family, then he needs to embody ‘don’t sweat the small stuff’ or his boys will learn to fear him (dramatic but true).

Bad behaviour should be corrected IMO but it’s the going on and on about it. If DS messes and then doesn’t like being wet - well, tough luck. He’s 4. He knows spilling milk makes him wet and he knows it his own fault. There’s literally no point getting angry about it.

I'm with your DH idea of expectations entirely. Your frustration should be at yourself.

YABU.
By now your DS should be able to sit properly at a table without havibg to be told to. The problem is you are allowing him to sit in this manner rather than making sure he does. That is why your child pushes back when his Dad tries to make him. By undermining your DH in front of your DS your son has seen that he can get away with his behaviour with no consequences and indeed "sticking 2 fingers up" at your DH.

There needs to be a joint approach and personally I think DH's standards are more in line in ensuring your son behaves in an appropriate manner by the time he starts school.

Being quiet when the baby is sleeping is harder I think and really tricky for them to remember especially when they're playing

This is very true. I grew up in a big family, and have four DCs myself. From birth, we were not quiet when the baby slept. We would hoover, play music, play games, move around the house, talk, etc. No effort made to reduce noise. Obviously we werent louder than usual either. Babies can sleep through all this quite contentedly. I remember myself at a very young age liking hearing family life about me as I fell asleep. It was comforting to hear and know parents were nearby. My DCs have said similar to me.
So, not criticising, just saying that having quiet when a baby is sleeping is not a necessity, it is optional. You don’t have to do it.

I’m with Dh on this. The bad behaviour you describe as minor would actually drive me mad. You’re failing to teach you son even basic manners. I know he’s only little, but you start as you mean to go on. I can see why your oh is getting frustrated

I'm with you op, let kids be kids without too much stress about rules and mess, and as for the 'undermining your dh' argument, thsts a bit old fashioned - parenting can be messy, complicated and emotional, there have been plenty of times I haven't agreed with my dh's parenting style, and I'm sure plenty of times the kids have had so called 'mixed messages', so what? We're human, my kids have turned out fine..so far....

And you can teach manners without pain and drama

I’ve only just read the part where you’re calling your oh out on disciplining your child, in front of your child??!! Seriously?? So your child gets away with bad behaviour and your oh is undermined in front of your child for trying to teach him manners?

I wouldn't tolerate the behaviours your DH is disciplining either. The issue is that you don't mind the behaviour so your DS is confused. You both need to be on the same wave length about what to discipline and how to discipline.

i tend to agree with your dh on some of this behaviour, but it not really on to be shouting at ds either, of course he's going to shout back, i would if someone was yelling at me.
to undermine each other as parents you need to talk about your expectations on both sides of parenting. no wonder ds is confused, mummy says it's white and daddy says black iyswim.

YABU at 4 your DS should be sitting properly and know not to touch with dirty hands YABVU caking our your DH and undermining his parenting.

Some of you seriously get angry at kids for minor spillages on pyjamas? I dont tolerate that kind of adult behaviour in my house

Those things would drive me mad and I"m pretty laidback. I'm with your DH on this.

I agree with your DH. At four years old, your DS should be able to sit at the table properly, and not interfere with food prep or grab at clothing with sticky hands. He should also be able to understand using a quiet voice when someone's asleep. The expectations at school will be very different from yours, so you'd be helping him if you addressed them.

But all those things can be addressed calmly and firmly rather than with shouting.

You are letting too much go, so have a conversation with your DH about addressing those things together, but make sure you share a strategy that's calm but effective. Your DS needs to see you working as a team.

Sit with ds and dh and agree the rules with pictures. Stick on wall. What you can snd cannot do.

For me your dh is over the top .
Kid noise is normal

And if it s his dh anxiety then that s crap to live with been there.

But try and see if with ds and dh you can be clearer together.