AIBU to comment on DH's parenting

[tempnamechange98765]

Bit of background. We have two DCs aged 4 and 16 months. We've all been at home since lockdown began (we're in Wales so restrictions haven't been eased as much as in England), DH working full time and me part time. Monday's and Fridays are my days off. Neither DC has been back to any childcare setting yet, so it's been intense, but no where near as bad as I would've pictured if someone told me about this scenario a year ago

DH didn't have the best example of parenting growing up, his dad is a bit of a waste of space and never showed much interest, wasn't very tolerant of children. His DM is quite traditional and adores our DCs but I think there was a fair bit of her bad mouthing FIL to the DCs, arguments and playing favourites with her own daughter. Nevertheless DH has happy memories of his childhood and we have a good relationship with MIL who has seen the DC a fair few times in lockdown for garden visits/walks.

DS age 4 is lovely. In lockdown he's been quite intense and needs an awful lot of input from us, is needy etc, but perfectly manageable compared with a lot of children I hear about. Bad behaviour is usually addressed effectively with either reward charts or consequences eg loss of tablet time.

DH is constantly on at DS, about small things which I think should just be ignored/not made a big deal out of. I'm impatient and won't tolerate things like throwing toys (toys get removed for a set time), nastiness to baby DC, so IMO I'm not letting too much go. Examples of the small things DH will pick at are:

• sitting at the table properly/spilling food. DS tends to sit cross legged or with his knees up, is clumsy and spills a bit of milk from his cereal on his pjs. He doesn't like wet clothes so sometimes will make a fuss. I ignore this, I might suggest he won't spill if he sits properly with his legs under the table, but I don't push it. DH will nag about the spilling, force DS to sit properly, DS ends up getting cross and shouting at DH, DH then gets cross...etc etc. Tiny things like this escalate a lot.
• messing round when he's meant to be getting dressed, deliberately putting things on backwards
• making "too much" noise when baby DS is napping. The noise is just normal kids' noise, baby isn't a great napper so I always try and keep noise to a minimum any way, but the things DH will pick at is eg closing the doors too loudly, dropping toys on the hard floor etc
• general irritating behaviour/pestering. Pulling on DH's clothes, getting his food covered hands on DH's clothes, touching food when we're trying to prepare it for lunch etc

This list is just an example, but the reason it bothers me so much is because it always escalates. DH always comes across as impatient/angry when addressing these types of issues. I can see that DS probably feels micromanaged, so he gets angry, which in turn makes DH more angry, it often ends up in DS in tears.

I suggested the book How to talk...as I read it when I found DS' behaviour really challenging at the start of the year, and I found it really helpful in still addressing some behaviours but in a different way that doesn't escalate into a row/tears. DH said he would read it too but he downloaded it on his kindle about 6 months ago and hasn't got very far.

Sorry, this is so long but if you've stuck with me, the AIBU is that I'm at the point now where I'm fed up and will call DH on the behaviour. So this morning the cereal/milk spilling incident happened (we're talking drips of milk spilled, not a bowl's worth) and when DS inevitably got stroppy with DH for making him sit properly and pushing his chair under the table, and DH responded with "don't you dare shout at me..." I told him he should've just ignored it, who cares that he spills a bit of milk. DH then has a go at me for micro managing him, but I only call him out when I see him micro managing DS. This is all in front of DS by the way, I try so hard not to argue in front of him but in lockdown he is almost always there. The only time he's not is bedtime, so I do tend to call things out when I see them.

DS' mood is often affected for the rest of the day then, if there's been shouting from DH and him crying. It's generally me who then has to handle him as I'm working PT. Plus, I don't really want him to be an unhappy child who's constantly picked at.

So AIBU? Should I just bite my tongue, walk away?

I'm really interested to hear about what others do when it comes to co-parenting.

When your DS starts school in a few weeks time, do you think the lunchtime staff will tolerate him sitting cross legged at the table, or food being spilt on clothes due to him refusing to sit properly when asked? Will they tolerate him touching food he shouldnt be touching? Will the school staff tolerate their clothes being pulled on by dirty hands?

Of course not, there are basic manners that are generally expected from 4 year olds and while I'm sure no-one at school would be nasty to him about it, it wont do his self esteem any good to feel he is constantly being put right. Do your DS a favour and show a united front with his DF in teaching him how to behave.

OP I could have written your post. But the difference is I’m reading all these replies and getting a schooling. I’ve always read not to sweat the small stuff, but never realized that simply by ignoring the things my DH picks up on I’m actually undermining his parenting. Of course it is. Because for your DH this is not ‘the small stuff’. It’s probably about respect for mealtimes, others’ personal boundaries, self discipline, etc. which he may not articulate, but which nonetheless are core values for him. If you ignore the behaviors because you consider them petty, you are, by extension, giving your DH the message that you have little time or regard for his core values. That may be contributing to how angry he’s feeling. Ask him. This dynamic will eat away at your marriage, and your DCs will suffer from the inconsistency, unless you really pay attention to backing up your DH. I’m going to change my ways, sharpish. All the best to you too x

As an adult have you never spilt a drink or knocked something over? If child is clumsy you don't need to get angry ...

I think you are both kind of right really.
He's going to have to sit properly at a table at school so it is better to start that now.

Sitting with his knees up dripping milk about would be irritating but it would be a "Sit up properly please you're slopping your milk all over" from me. Your DH turning into a shouting match is over the top.

As an adult have you never spilt a drink or knocked something over?#

Don't be silly, the OP said it happens often because of the way her son sits at the table, it's absolutely logical therefore, for his father to tell him to sit properly to try and avoid spilling everyday

@tempnamechange98765

I'm a bit shocked by the responses to your thread. I completely wouldn't see behaviours you describe as anything to really get worked up about with a 4 year old and would lean towards your parenting style. Now I'm wondering if that's really unusual.

“It's not that I'm ok with little behaviours as such, but all the parenting advice I've read/been given has always been to ignore behaviour that you think is attention seeking or minor irritating behaviour.”

Hmm, I think you’ve misunderstood. You need to teach and guide your child, not just leave him to work things out on his own.

Unfortunately you are currently encouraging your child to be a complete pain who will drive other people mad.

When mine were little we were in a cycle of nagging so agreed the behaviours we would ignore, those we would distract and those that needed other intervention. It didn't always work but was a useful conversation to have and on the whole made for a more positive household.

Mine are older now and we do have this problem again a bit - my dh increases expectations as behaviours improve so it feels like the dcs can't win at times so maybe it's something we need to revisit.

A conversation to be had one evening with the kids in bed though I'd suggest with a few days grace to let it sink in. I've also read the how to talk books and find them very useful but it takes me a while to experience a situation, react in the way they don't advise, reflect on it and then implement next time so don't expect immediate results with your dh

It's not that the behaviours described merit shouting, it's that I can easily see how it would be infuriating and escalate the situation for your coparent to not only brush off any annoying/bad behaviour as nothing, but actively undermine you whenever you try to address it. The few times I have felt like my partner wasn't on the same page as me/was undermining me have made me feel far angrier than when I feel like we are a united front, even if the behaviour in question is the same. It can make the behaviour itself feel worse. I also believe you can get into the habit of being "bad cop" when the other parent is very permissive, which is a sad position to be in.

I think OP probably underestimates how much of the shouting happens because of her. Even on here, she doesn't seem to have any self awareness that her words come across as dismissive and condescending. I think it would be really aggravating to live with, especially as he's picking DS up on pretty standard things and is getting back "you're being ridiculous, I say it doesn't matter so it doesn't".

OK I haven't read this entire thread.

But as far as sitting at a table is concerned, what size of furniture are we talking?

At school children sit in proportionately smaller tables in proportionately smaller chairs. So they can sit, bottom on seat comfortably.

At 4 I assume they're out of a high chair, do they have a higher size appropriate seat? If not I think it's very unreasonable to expect a child to sit at a 'normal' table on their bottom to try and use cutlery at face level. That's an absurd expectation.

Also - I wonder how much time the father is spending alone with his kids.

Because if it's not much - we will never know to what extent he's really committed to having all these battles.

If he had majority responsibility for them, I bet he'd start letting a few things go.

@aSofaNearYou Yep, that's exactly how I would see it too

This isn’t just a little bit of irritating behaviour best to be ignored. If I had to sit and watch a child sit dribbling and dropping food down himself at meal times because he couldn’t sit properly at the table, I’d literally feel sick. And what happens after? Do you let him walk around in rotten clothes all day? You say it’s up to him to get changed if his wet and dirty clothes are upsetting him, so he’s not even getting cleaned up after. Your standards are disgusting

If he had majority responsibility for them, I bet he'd start letting a few things go.

Yes! This!

My DH is guilty of snapping at DS after he's spent a whole afternoon looking after him...It's not that DS's behaviour has got worse but that DH is not naturally patient and so finds normal small child behaviour incredibly wearing after a few hours.

As an adult have you never spilt a drink or knocked something over?

There is obviously a big difference between a one off accident and doing something regularly as a result of a bad habit people have already explained to you. I would absolutely tell a child of 4 to sit up properly when they eat - it won't always be milk and many other food stains. They need to learn to make a conscious effort to respect their things (obviously accidents will still happen but they need to at least try).

Wow, OP, some of these comments really aren't merited by what you've said so far...I don't think you're 'dismissive', 'condescending' or 'teaching your child to be a complete pain'.

Trying now to think how I would address each of the examples in your OP:

1. sitting at the table legs crossed/spilling food - 'Come on X, we spill less food if we sit properly and then we get more ice cream/chocolate buttons because Mummy is happy' (waits to get slated for bribery ). If any mess is made, I'd pass a wipe or cloth and get the child to clean it up themselves. We tend to exaggerate 'No no, mess, mess!' when DS makes a mess, which he finds hilarious and he tries hard not to make any mess now and is told 'clever boy' (he's 2, though, so not being patronising to him ).
2. Messing around when getting dressed. We just tell DS sternly 'come on now, time to get dressed'. If he put something on the wrong way round/inside out, I think I'd just point it out to him and then leave it (clearly at the moment, we mostly dress him so not an issue). He won't do it for school because the teachers/other children will point it out to him.
3. Making too much noise when baby is napping. We have this issue here sometimes with DH on calls. I whisper, 'Daddy on work call so we have to be very quiet'. DS then whispers himself. He's started to tell ME to be quiet - he whispers 'Mummy, Daddy on call so need to be very very quiet' and we go and play quietly in the sitting-room. If he was accidentally noisy, I'd just remind him that he needs to be quiet. I wouldn't shout or get annoyed.
4. General irritating behaviour/pestering - I've started saying to DS when he wants attention or asks for a snack/drink, 'Mummy is busy doing the dishwasher/making dinner/speaking to grandma. You need to wait a few minutes'. If he had dirty hands, I'd take him to wash them. I don't mind the hugs/holding clothes/holding onto people - sometimes they need a bit of affection, especially at the moment.

DH tends to take his lead from me, although he has less patience so loses it more often. He admits this and says there's not many jobs he wouldn't rather do than work with small children . I've never said anything to him in front of our son about his parenting, but he's never been consistently OTT or aggressive so I've never felt I had to.

A little milk dribbled down is normal, for this reason my dc always ate breakfast in their pjs so their clothes/uniforms wouldn"t get messy. Dropping a toy or closing a door loudly, while annoying, is normal thoughtless behaviour for a small child. Sitting properly at the table is one i would insist on though, as is not touching other people's food. Your dh sounds a bit moany tbh and he shouldn't be shouting at or arguing with a small child. I think you need to decide between yourselves what behaviour is acceptable and what definitely isn"t, you could each veto one or two things that can be let go. My dh always had ridiculously high standards when our dc were small, partly because he had never really been around children (only child) and partly because his mother is a clean freak and it caused a lot of problems between us.

@ChaosRising

Undermining her DH in front of their son in the first place, saying "who cares" about the things he's trying to discipline him over, all the "wow"'s about people who wouldn't ignore this behaviour, and saying "what consequences could possibly be used for silly little behaviours" are all dismissive and condescending.

@aSofaNearYou. I'm not sure I could keep quiet if DH was bawling DS out and I disagreed with it. I don't like shouting in my house without a good reason. Also, it's not dismissive and condescending for the OP (and me) to disagree with, and be surprised by, some of the responses on here. There's obviously some genuine differences of opinion.

Sandmason - why are the dh's 'core values' more important than the op's?

He's going to have to sit properly at a table at school

School and home are completely different. Plenty of children can follow the rules at school whilst still being more relaxed at home.
I wear trackies and scoff my food at home where no-one can see me. I have the awareness not to do this at work.

A four yr old fashionista is old enough to take the personal consequences of clothing defiance . So if he won't get dressed, or wears clothes back to front , let him, and if he regrets it, no parental rescue.

When he gets to school he'll be expected to sit on a chair at a table, eat tidily , not mess with other peoples food or smear mess on them. So now is the time to teach him some of the social manners he's going to need.

If you and DH undermine each others discipline in front of the child he will become an expert at playing you off against each other to get his own way.

@ChaosRising

From what she described he shouts after DS has got stroppy, so jumping in to say who cares is obviously dismissive. Of course it's fine to disagree but OPs whole "wow, I can't believe anyone disagrees with me, what on Earth could possibly need addressing about his behaviour" isn't the tone of someone that has considered compromise or that thinks his opinions could be equally valid. If she said that directly to him, it would come across as quite sarcastic.

@aSofaNearYou. Quite clearly OP has to work on how she addresses this issue with her DH and they should present a united front in front of their son. She admits this herself.

But the bit of the OP's post that resonates most with me is that they have a needy, unhappy child whose world has become a lot smaller, who is old enough to pick up on the general tense environment and who is probably not getting as much attention as he needs with both his parents having to balance work and childcare.

He needs lots of love, silliness and fun to boost his spirits. He doesn't need to be henpecked and shouted at.

@ChaosRising

I agree, but he needs love and silliness combined with constant healthy boundaries and guidance from both parents, not just one parent telling him that those things don't matter and the other ending up frustrated by being the only one enforcing those things. Teaching kids about things like table manners and cleanliness shouldn't be put on hold because they're not at school.

Why is everyone so obsessed with the holy grail of 'the united front'? If I dont agree with my dh's parenting (which has been fairly often over the years, as he had a very different upbringing to me), I am going to say something.