AIBU to comment on DH's parenting

[tempnamechange98765]

Bit of background. We have two DCs aged 4 and 16 months. We've all been at home since lockdown began (we're in Wales so restrictions haven't been eased as much as in England), DH working full time and me part time. Monday's and Fridays are my days off. Neither DC has been back to any childcare setting yet, so it's been intense, but no where near as bad as I would've pictured if someone told me about this scenario a year ago

DH didn't have the best example of parenting growing up, his dad is a bit of a waste of space and never showed much interest, wasn't very tolerant of children. His DM is quite traditional and adores our DCs but I think there was a fair bit of her bad mouthing FIL to the DCs, arguments and playing favourites with her own daughter. Nevertheless DH has happy memories of his childhood and we have a good relationship with MIL who has seen the DC a fair few times in lockdown for garden visits/walks.

DS age 4 is lovely. In lockdown he's been quite intense and needs an awful lot of input from us, is needy etc, but perfectly manageable compared with a lot of children I hear about. Bad behaviour is usually addressed effectively with either reward charts or consequences eg loss of tablet time.

DH is constantly on at DS, about small things which I think should just be ignored/not made a big deal out of. I'm impatient and won't tolerate things like throwing toys (toys get removed for a set time), nastiness to baby DC, so IMO I'm not letting too much go. Examples of the small things DH will pick at are:

• sitting at the table properly/spilling food. DS tends to sit cross legged or with his knees up, is clumsy and spills a bit of milk from his cereal on his pjs. He doesn't like wet clothes so sometimes will make a fuss. I ignore this, I might suggest he won't spill if he sits properly with his legs under the table, but I don't push it. DH will nag about the spilling, force DS to sit properly, DS ends up getting cross and shouting at DH, DH then gets cross...etc etc. Tiny things like this escalate a lot.
• messing round when he's meant to be getting dressed, deliberately putting things on backwards
• making "too much" noise when baby DS is napping. The noise is just normal kids' noise, baby isn't a great napper so I always try and keep noise to a minimum any way, but the things DH will pick at is eg closing the doors too loudly, dropping toys on the hard floor etc
• general irritating behaviour/pestering. Pulling on DH's clothes, getting his food covered hands on DH's clothes, touching food when we're trying to prepare it for lunch etc

This list is just an example, but the reason it bothers me so much is because it always escalates. DH always comes across as impatient/angry when addressing these types of issues. I can see that DS probably feels micromanaged, so he gets angry, which in turn makes DH more angry, it often ends up in DS in tears.

I suggested the book How to talk...as I read it when I found DS' behaviour really challenging at the start of the year, and I found it really helpful in still addressing some behaviours but in a different way that doesn't escalate into a row/tears. DH said he would read it too but he downloaded it on his kindle about 6 months ago and hasn't got very far.

Sorry, this is so long but if you've stuck with me, the AIBU is that I'm at the point now where I'm fed up and will call DH on the behaviour. So this morning the cereal/milk spilling incident happened (we're talking drips of milk spilled, not a bowl's worth) and when DS inevitably got stroppy with DH for making him sit properly and pushing his chair under the table, and DH responded with "don't you dare shout at me..." I told him he should've just ignored it, who cares that he spills a bit of milk. DH then has a go at me for micro managing him, but I only call him out when I see him micro managing DS. This is all in front of DS by the way, I try so hard not to argue in front of him but in lockdown he is almost always there. The only time he's not is bedtime, so I do tend to call things out when I see them.

DS' mood is often affected for the rest of the day then, if there's been shouting from DH and him crying. It's generally me who then has to handle him as I'm working PT. Plus, I don't really want him to be an unhappy child who's constantly picked at.

So AIBU? Should I just bite my tongue, walk away?

I'm really interested to hear about what others do when it comes to co-parenting.

He should be sitting properly and be prepared to be told off by adults. This will be expected at whatever setting he is attending in September. If he's making a mess because of silly behaviour, it should be picked up on. He isn't a toddler. You need to move him onto the next stage of being a bit more grown up. Toys being thrown shouldn't really still be happening, do you baby him?

All this should be handled without raised voices from the adults and strategies that you've come up with together.

I have 4yo twins and, if I’m honest, some of the things you’ve described I would associate with much younger children. My DSes would know not to touch things with messy hands and they definitely know not to throw toys. Saying that, I think you both need to have a conversation about expectations and how to manage them. We usually have a cloth on the table, and if the boys spill milk at breakfast, they clean it up. If it’s on their pyjamas, they take them off and put them on the washing basket. You and your DH are clearly at opposite ends, with one of you taking an authoritative approach and the other more submissive. I think you both need to work on finding a happy medium for helping your DS to start to manage these issues more independently.

I'm another that agrees more with your DH. Every single one of the things you've listed are things he should be picked up on, in my opinion.

It's not great that things are escalating but it's difficult to judge without seeing the conversations first hand how that comes about. If DH is excessively angry about these things off the bat then yes he's taking it too far. But if it comes as a result of DS being stroppy back when prompted about these things, then I don't think your DH can be blamed for it, it's your son not learning to cope appropriately with being called out on his behaviour that is the issue, quite likely as a result of the mixed messages he's getting.

I think when parents disagree on methods there is often an assumption by the more "permissive" parent that they are the one's in the right and need to educate the other one. If I were him I would find that very patronising. I also can't tell you how infuriating it feels to watch the other parent let all these behaviours slide and feel like you're biting your tongue all the time. It makes it far more likely you're going to explode, so you'd probably find if you were a bit firmer on these things DH wouldn't end up stepping in.

I think you should sit down with him and decide on what behaviours you both think need to be picked up on and how you handle them in the moment, but you need to be willing to compromise, too. It's not going to work if you just assume he should come around to your way of thinking.

I'm with your DH on this

The worst thing to do is "call him out" in front of DS

No wonder he plays up for DH. He knows mummy will let him

Wow, I cannot believe that some of you won't tolerate these behaviours listed. A 4 year old getting food on his clothes? And sitting with his legs crossed at the table instead of legs straight down? Just, wow. He's not climbing on the table or kneeling up to lean over.

In terms of pulling on clothes, he never does this to me, he tends to only do it to DH, I suspect because he knows it will wind him up. DS is a massive wind up merchant, don't get me wrong he irritates me a lot some of the time, but I've always gone by the mantra that minor irritating behaviour should be ignored, especially when it's attention seeking (which in lockdown, us both working and a baby/toddler sibling, it often is). That way addressing really unacceptable behaviour is more effectively.

DS' behaviour was really poor most of last year, a combination of being 3, having a new baby sibling and me suffering with PND/PNA. We've come a long way in addressing it and a lot of the time he's such a good boy, especially compared with so many children his age that I hear about. He never makes a fuss at bedtime etc, knows to say sorry, is generally kind to his sibling albeit has bouts of jealousy. All more reasons why I let minor things go.

Before lockdown DS was at the pre school at his future school mornings only, and also a private nursery two days a week, and the feedback I got from them was that he was very independent in getting his own shoes on, coat etc. I definitely don't baby him in that sense. He wasn't badly behaved.

I actually agree with the fact I'm unreasonable on the calling out in front of DS though. It's obviously a much bigger problem in lockdown because we're around each other 24/7. I will try my best to bite my tongue, I'm absolutely a control freak so part of me knew I was BU, in the moment I just find it so hard to bite my tongue.

I would deal with most of the things you mention in the way your dh does, and my husband would have reinforced it, not contradicted me. Then there's no escalation and no shouting and the child is clear of both parents expectations.

@Macncheeseballs literally not a single person has said that

What do you mean by "won't tolerate"? I wouldn't heavily punish these things but I wouldn't ignore them either, I would ask him to stop doing them, and obviously after a certain point of him not doing so he would get in trouble for not listening. He would be told off for stropping back. These behaviours aren't shocking from a 4 y/o but in my opinion your DH is right to begin teaching him that they aren't ok anymore. Especially things like sticking fingers in other people's food etc.

You freely admit you are a control freak and you seem shocked by people who are a bit stricter than you. It's not hard to imagine why this could ultimately cause a problem with you habitually undermining your DH and giving out a strong message to the two of them that your way is the right way. It's good that you agree you shouldn't call him out in front of DS but I don't think things will improve unless you are a bit more open to the idea of you changing your approach, rather than it being perfect and just DH needing to change his.

You could be me. I asked DH to read that book. But he knows best. We've got a middle child who at the weekend pushed his grandmother out of her chair because he wanted to sit on it, and DH is still wittering on about him getting himself dressed. Instead of not making a big deal he sits with him for half an hour, so basically DS gets attention for bad behaviour.

So when all of you say "I would not tolerate that" what exactly do you do? What consequences could possibly be used for silly little behaviours?

Well that went well. Op did it occur to you that you might need to change your ways a bit too? As you 2nd post reads like you saying I am right

In answering your 3rd post

My children got told to sit up straight at the table. Simple as that. No food served until they did.

They got told no stop that if they tried to smear food on my clothing. Go wash your hands then you can have a hug.

I eoild be OK with genuine spillages but if they were done due to them sitting poorly I would say. Look what happened because you didn't sit like you are supposed to.

I would never correct my hisbands parenting in front of the children

OP I think you are generally on the right track. Prioritise what really matters and if he responds well to star charts etc then stick with that. Your DH is setting up unnecessary conflicts. Having said that, children are in your daily life for 20 years, your DH on the other hand for the duration....so you do need to find a way of agreeing on this. Can you maybe include the bits about not making a mess in his rewards? I don't think he should be punished as it's quite hard at 4 , but he should have an explanation of why it's not good to sit cross legged etc. We successfully got our 4 year old to improve his table manners, he was told his reward would be a trip to the royal academy and brunch at a nice restaurant if he could meet the standard. He did manage it and the waiters at the Wolseley we're quite charmed!

Telling your child to stop it may be a start op. Literally anything other than completely ignoring it

My third post is genuine, I'm always looking for ways to improve my parenting - obviously, I wouldn't be asking on here/reading books otherwise.

Thanks for answering @enko. In response to your point eg the child wouldn't get food until they sat properly, if my DS was in a naughty mood, he would sit properly until the food was in front of him, then cross legs again. I can imagine you'd recommend removing the food again, back and forth until he sits properly? I just don't have the energy or the time for such a battle over that kind of thing which really doesn't matter (to me). He doesn't sit slouching or leaning over etc, he's just crossing his legs.

@tempnamechange98765

Your posts say everything. You clearly want people to parent your way, how you feel is superior, and not any other way.

My 20 month old will get pulled up for not sitting at the table properly.

YABU for expecting everyone to parent how you parent
YANBU for getting annoyed at shouting in your house

The fact that you are minimising bad manners and saying "wow" to posters who are saying that by now your 4 year old should know how to sit properly at a table makes me sympathise with your poor DH even more. Even after a string of posts stating that your DH's expectations are normal and realistic you are merely seeking affirmation that he is wrong and you are right.

@tempnamechange98765
Yes would take it away and return because it will not need to be done many times before they realise i mean business. I am able to see the long term benefit for a short time annoyance

It may not matter to you but it matters to your dh. You are a team parent as a team

How would you feel if he completely ignored a parenting issue you felt was important?

OP, you're going back on yourself and minimising some of the bad behaviours now. Throwing toys is not really an acceptable thing to do for a 4-year-old. My DDs friend does that but he has behavioural problems and delayed speech. Pulling your DH's clothes with dirty hands is also something that he should know not to do, especially if it has been said time and time again. Children do forget but it seems malicious if you say he can press buttons and does it to irritate him.
It seems your DS actually struggles with anger and his emotions? If he starts shouting at your DH for asking him to sit properly then I would say it's an over escalation.

I would not be bothered about spilling milk for example because a child that age probably finds it difficult to properly control their hand movements at all times, but making a fuss instead of calmly leaving the table and putting on a new shirt again is a little bit weird I would say. It also depends if your son is just 4 or nearly 5 of course because I think there is a big change happening between 3 and 5.

I would say your son probably needs a bit of support (dealing with his emotions and responses to parenting) or he needs to do more physical activity and not have a tablet. Does he build LEGO for example or would he do some simpler puzzle books.
I'm speaking from experience, my DDs is so much better behaved when she sees no TV and spends longer in the park etc.

Also, why are you using the term micromanaging so much? It's not just you, it's lots of people on mumsnet. I feel a lot of the time it could just be called parenting maybe? Making sure that your child is well behaved in school in the future and can sit at a restaurant and be polite. Task following is also important for brain development and of course necessary in a school and at a workplace.

Good luck and I hope you and your DH can meet somewhere in the middle.

I’m with your husband. I also wouldn’t tolerate the behaviour you describe from my 4 year old.

High standards really does pay off and I think more people should expect good behaviour.

OP, I notice you are now saying DS just sits cross legged, but your original post said: DS tends to sit cross legged or with his knees up, is clumsy and spills a bit of milk from his cereal on his pjs. He doesn't like wet clothes so sometimes will make a fuss

I honestly don't know any parents who would not find this to be objectionable behaviour in a 4 year old. Some very laid back parents might ignore it, as you are, but it creates tension and you are just storing up trouble for later, not to mention creating extra washing etc.

Ditto for the rest of your list, I'm afraid. That is some annoying and unacceptable behaviour you've listed!

What consequences could possibly be used for silly little behaviours

Can you not see how this is an incredibly self righteous attitude towards approaches different to your own? I agree with PPs, it's not about serious sanctions, it's just about telling him not to do these things and meaning it. Having some authority. Not just putting everything down to him being a wind up merchant or "not caring" yourself. There is a middle ground between something being a serious punishable offence, and not caring at all.

Everything that you have outlined that your husband does I completely agree with.
If I was him I would be very unhappy about you undermining me in front of the children.

I can guarantee OP will not return

@tempnamechange98765

My third post is genuine, I'm always looking for ways to improve my parenting - obviously, I wouldn't be asking on here/reading books otherwise.

Thanks for answering @enko. In response to your point eg the child wouldn't get food until they sat properly, if my DS was in a naughty mood, he would sit properly until the food was in front of him, then cross legs again. I can imagine you'd recommend removing the food again, back and forth until he sits properly? I just don't have the energy or the time for such a battle over that kind of thing which really doesn't matter (to me). He doesn't sit slouching or leaning over etc, he's just crossing his legs.

If you dont have the energy your time to so something as simple as pull him up on basic table manners then you have a serious shock coming when he hits teenage years.