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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To report this person to their employer for hate speech?

573 replies

NickMyLipple · 03/07/2020 20:39

I've attached a screenshot - I am not friends with this person. She does however display her work on social media and she is in her uniform with her lanyard on display in her profile picture and in other photos which are accessible to the public.

It's NHS Values Week and I feel very strongly that if you're going to publically display your workplace you need to be responsible in not making such racist and hateful comments.

I called her out on it and the post has now been deleted.

AIBU to call the HR department and complain, or should I leave it and hope that she thinks carefully before she posts in future?

To report this person to their employer for hate speech?
OP posts:
Duvetdoggy · 05/07/2020 01:28

But it is part of a historical history of abuse. Which is racism. It is a continuation of this. I can post one comment suggesting, for example that women like rape. One comment. That's it. Should my employers know that (if I were a man) posting one comment which supports the idea of rape being acceptable when the medical care if women was my job, know about this. If I saw this one comment suggesting that rape was acceptable by a person paid to look after my health would I be worried.

Would I think, O it doesn't matter, its only one comment and he dies a good job? No I wouldn't because that one comment reveals exactly to me what he thinks of rape, and the abuse of women.

Similarly, one comment which is racist reveals exactly to me what the employer thinks about some people in their care.

We all have to take racism as a serious abuse issue because historically this has been proven over and over again.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 05/07/2020 01:34

If a man made one comment, I'd hope he would be set straight. People are inclined to make stupid comments without engaging their brain. If he was called on it and retracted it, I would give benefit of the doubt. Once. I wouldn't be phoning his boss and trying to get him sacked. If it was something he repeatedly said, having been challenged on it, I would see that as more harmful, since he'd had the opportunity to really think about it and had decided he stood by his original view

Goosefoot · 05/07/2020 01:34

@ArnoldBee

I read an article earlier which for me triggered the question of if the person who made the comment was aware of some of the background to this factory? The article cited that an emoloyee was paid £4 an hour who had entered the UK 20 years ago on a tourist visa. If they knew this you could argue that in fact the comment wasn't racist.
Well, it would be interesting to actually discuss the nature of the comment. It was phrased pretty crassly, but as someone early on in the thread pointed it out, rephrased many people would agree with it.

I thought it was unclear whether the original statement meant the workers in the factory, or the manager - i decided the manager in the end but it was open to interpretation. People who immigrate to open businesses and factories do so with the idea that they will be running businesses that are good for the country and obey the laws, that's why they are given permission to enter the country.

I think most people would not think that factory owners who come into the country to exploit workers should be allowed to stay. Even of they are Bill Gates.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 05/07/2020 01:35

Just realised it's gone 1.30 am so am going to bow out now.

FixItUpChappie · 05/07/2020 01:36

Reporting people to their employers is hateful, and all you will have gained is an enemy.

^^Everyone needs a public shaming and heads to roll these days - not a strategy that will win hearts and minds in the long run.

Goosefoot · 05/07/2020 01:42

@Gobb

iboogy Did you mean someone else? I never mentioned rainbow lanyards
Yeah, she meant me.

My point was that many people have opinions about things and still treat people professionally in the NHS. It's kind of foundational to being a health care worker, that you treat everyone properly and with respect - even murders, rapists etc. Or anti-racism activists who are health care workers will treat KK members. Or the nurses with the rainbow lanyards will treat the conservative religious people properly.

Workers that don't or can't aren't really able to function.

Goosefoot · 05/07/2020 01:47

@Duvetdoggy

And to continue your analogy. If a teacher who posted memes if sex with children was of the opinion that this was not abusive but still worked with children but didn't abuse them would you still be happy they taught your child. After all they are not seeking to abuse your child personally.

Likewise if someone posts mees about racism but isn't actually being racist to their clients, is that okay?

What's the difference?

Um, sex with children, and pictures of sex with children, are illegal.
DeeCeeCherry · 05/07/2020 01:52

Once I knew someone was a racist I wouldn't trust them to look after my health. Posts like these will bring out the ones who want racism to be acceptable tho eg 'dont like cancel culture' etc. I like it when it comes to racists, they deserve it for their nasty views. & She shared her racism so she shouldn't be surprised at consequences

DeeCeeCherry · 05/07/2020 01:57

It's also bringing employer into disrepute. Lest those who condone open racism forget, there tends to be policies about things like that

Duvetdoggy · 05/07/2020 02:00

Goosefoot so is racism. It's illegal to ask for example, for only white employees. Nor did I say actually photos of child abuse I said memes supporting or endorsing it.

My point being, as a society we have zero tolerance for some things like rape and child abuse. But not for racism. Given the historical trajectory of racism and the millions of humans it has killed, why is this.

How about a zero tolerance on it too?
And why not?

willloman · 05/07/2020 02:14

What Gobb said, I don't like or support her views but what has happened to freedom of speech? Must we all only say what the SM wishes us to? And wanting someone to lose their job which could impact their family, children etc is a crazy power trip on your part OP. Would hate to have you as a neighbour in a place like Stalinist Russia, or say China. I believe our democracy gives us freedom to disagree in a civil manner. You called her out and she responded, 'nough said.

Duvetdoggy · 05/07/2020 02:34

Our democracy also has laws on place to protect people who historically have suffered due to no recourse to laws.

Do I have freedom of speech to say "All Jewish people must die", or "Women, complaining about raie, little bitches asking for it?", without consequences. No I dont because one has laws against it, and the other is deemed wholly wrong .

So was isn't racism deemed equally wrong?

Duvetdoggy · 05/07/2020 02:39

@Jingsmahbucket, I'm trying to keep this one going. Taking a sleep now.

DuineArBith · 05/07/2020 06:36

I don't understand all the freedom of speech merchants on here. Have you not noticed that there have been laws against hate speech for decades? If you think people should be free to go around inciting racial hatred, what are you doing by way of campaigning to repeal those laws?

LadyGAgain · 05/07/2020 08:58

Oh @willloman - your comment was dealt with a long time ago in this thread. Have a read.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously I wish I could yawn back at your views but unfortunately they are so concerning that we have to take a stance. Ignoring an issue like racism is endorsing it. Believing that someone's unconscious (if it even is) bias wont impact how they treat others is idiocy. And in a caring profession is deeply concerning. You - and those who also won't be anti-racist - are part of the problem. And the more of us who call YOU out and keep this conversation going, the better. You defend behaviour that isn't defensible.

Her comment was racist. Having a bad day doesn't excuse it. Removing it from SM doesn't excuse it. And someone saying that her kids would suffer if she lost her job and we would have one less HCP... that's HER fault. She needs to educate herself. And if she has kids, chances are that they are being raised as racists. And so the cycle continues. FFS, this has to stop.

CluelessBaker · 05/07/2020 09:02

what has happened to freedom of speech?

Absolutely nothing. You simply don’t understand it, that’s all.

Expressions of hatred toward someone on account of that person's colour, race, disability, nationality, ethnic or national origin, religion, gender identity, or sexual orientation have been forbidden since the Public Order Act of 1986. The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 made it illegal to stir up religious hatred. The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 makes it illegal to incite hatred on the ground of sexual orientation. The Football Offences Act 1991 forbids indecent or racist chanting at football matches.

Even before this suite of hate speech laws was introduced there were restrictions on free speech. It has never been legal for a person to defame another under the defence of free speech. It has never been permissible to share state secrets, or broadcast the contents of protected judicial proceedings. There has never been an unqualified right to freedom of expression in the U.K.

Article 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998 provides that citizens of this country have the right to freedom of expression, but specifically states that this right is subject to restrictions which may be “in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary”.

And freedom of expression has never meant freedom from consequences. The law states that you have the freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority. In other words, you can’t be fined or imprisoned or otherwise punished by the government or a public authority for holding a certain opinion UNLESS your actions fall under any of the other statutes mentioned above.

Employers have always had the freedom to fire employees who don’t adhere to their code of conduct. In fact it is much harder for employers to do this now than it used to be, because employees have much greater protection under the law than they used to. Only a few decades ago it was perfectly acceptable for an employer to fire you for being gay, being a woman who got married, being a communist or expressing communist views, or any number of reasons both serious and trivial. It is now rightly much harder to fire people without just cause - but expressing racist views is very much a just cause, and employers have every right to take action against employees who behave this way.

So no, we have not left behind some golden age whereby anybody could say what they liked without repercussions. The right to freedom of expression has always been a qualified right. The rights of employers to terminate employee contracts where their employees don’t follow their code of conduct has always existed. And it’s hard to see how we could benefit as a society by assuming a mad ideological position that there should be no consequences for people who incite hatred and say racist things. Who wins by the law protecting the rights of racists over the rights of their victims?

Pomegranatepompom · 05/07/2020 09:38

Excellent post @CluelessBaker

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 05/07/2020 10:29

@CluelessBaker perfect.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 05/07/2020 10:32

The Cambridge professor who tweeted that white lives don't matter, hasn't lost her job, although her comments were removed by twitter. Her employer has presumably concluded that she is capable of doing her job without prejudice to the white students in her care.
The NHS worker isn't any different imo

ddl1 · 05/07/2020 10:50

Especially since she deleted it, no. It's a nasty comment, but I don't think we should be too ready to report people for comments on social media. Calling her out was appropriate; reporting to her employer wouldn't be. If the comment had been more work-related, i.e. referred to patients or BAME workers in the NHS, I would feel a bit different.

FTMF30 · 05/07/2020 11:00

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

The Cambridge professor who tweeted that white lives don't matter, hasn't lost her job, although her comments were removed by twitter. Her employer has presumably concluded that she is capable of doing her job without prejudice to the white students in her care. The NHS worker isn't any different imo
You're jumping to someone losing their job. OP is questioning whether to report fo someone's workplace, which won't necessarily mean the offender will lose their job does it.
MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 05/07/2020 11:06

She might not, but it is a possibility. I wouldn't risk that for another person on the basis of one deleted comment.

StillCoughingandLaughing · 05/07/2020 11:44

And there will be one less HCP in the system during a pandemic.

Comments like this are ridiculous. Even if - and it’s a massive if - she did get sacked, ‘one less HPC’ is NOT what’s going to tip the NHS over the edge.

In recent months, temporary hospitals with capacity for tens of thousands have been thrown up in a matter of days. A huge push has been made for staff to delay retirement or return to work. How many HPCs do you think we have lost due to concerns over Brexit and other immigration issues? How many more do you think will quit because, while people were out clapping for them, they were putting their own health at risk because of inadequate PPE? How many actually DIED?

If you’re worried about the NHS, worry about it losing those workers. Don’t waste your concern on one (hypothetically) unemployed racist.

StillCoughingandLaughing · 05/07/2020 11:47

Reporting people to their employers is hateful, and all you will have gained is an enemy

Oh, well boo bloody hoo. It would be terrible if the kind of person who publicly makes racist statements didn’t want to be your friend. I’m choking up at the thought.

CluelessBaker · 05/07/2020 11:52

The Cambridge professor who tweeted that white lives don't matter, hasn't lost her job

That isn’t what she tweeted.

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