To think referring to guests at Christmas lunch as waifs and strays is extremely rude

[notawaif]

I know I am BU to think about this in July, so don’t judge me on that.

I’ve seen it on a couple of threads and heard it in RL too, on FB and so on. AIBU for thinking it’s rude and condescending towards a guest?

how some people refer to the people who aren't immediate family who turn up once a year for a good lunch and too much alcohol.
Well, not really. It has a very specific undertone of these people being invited as a charitable gesture, because they've nowhere else to go.
Someone else referred to them as bloody orphans! 🤦‍♀️

There again - ‘turn up’ - connotations of not really being wanted, isn’t it?

I never did accept those invitations permanently, not so much because of being offended but because I only want to be invited somewhere if I’m wanted because of me, of who I am and what I have to offer.

I think this is probably an example of where a term feels very different depending on whether you are the one dishing it out or the one on the receiving end.

Similar to the very large number of threads around “white privilege”

There is probably also a spectrum of ‘waifdom’, and someone who is a student in a foreign country who is spending one Christmas alone and who will get calls / messages / post from family over the season probably feels differently to someone who has no family and has as a result missed out on very large number of social / family experiences and is used to feeling isolated or accepted on sufferance.

@Thisismytimetoshine That's how you see it.

We more or less think, as @SleepingStandingUp's 2nd phrase

Great, a motley crew, wonder who will turn up? Our very specific undertone is that nobody we kow, who lives close, need spend Chrstmas Day alone if they don't want to!

If you want to see that as patronising or me being LAdy Bountiful, feel free!

Sometimes we have 2 or 3, one year we had 10!! We camped out in the front room and ate Christmas and Boxing Day and all the odd bits and bobs we had in for treats. A couple went home and came back with fruit and nuts, cheese and an extra Christmas pudding.

It's fun. A bit of a free for all. I take the dog for a walk, everyone else washes up and we all set to the games and booze - again some of our waifs and starys bring those along with them! It just gets a bit crammed as our house really isn't that big!

I think it's my idea of Christmas because one Nana did it. She had 8 kids, 12 grandkids and 2 tiny rooms and a cellar in an Everton back to back. She could cram everyone in and have room and food for a few guests, every single year!

It's just what we do! If you don't like it, you don't know where I live, so you wouldn't be invited anywat!

I think this is probably an example of where a term feels very different depending on whether you are the one dishing it out or the one on the receiving end. I stopped to think about that!

I've been both. Either I am very thick skinned or the friends who had me over for Christmas aren't twats. But I didn't feel like a charity case and don't think any of my unexpected guests do either.

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@Thisismytimetoshine That's how you see it.

We more or less think, as @SleepingStandingUp's 2nd phrase

Great, a motley crew, wonder who will turn up? Our very specific undertone is that nobody we kow, who lives close, need spend Chrstmas Day alone if they don't want to!

If you want to see that as patronising or me being LAdy Bountiful, feel free!

Sometimes we have 2 or 3, one year we had 10!! We camped out in the front room and ate Christmas and Boxing Day and all the odd bits and bobs we had in for treats. A couple went home and came back with fruit and nuts, cheese and an extra Christmas pudding.

It's fun. A bit of a free for all. I take the dog for a walk, everyone else washes up and we all set to the games and booze - again some of our waifs and starys bring those along with them! It just gets a bit crammed as our house really isn't that big!

I think it's my idea of Christmas because one Nana did it. She had 8 kids, 12 grandkids and 2 tiny rooms and a cellar in an Everton back to back. She could cram everyone in and have room and food for a few guests, every single year!

It's just what we do! If you don't like it, you don't know where I live, so you wouldn't be invited anywat! [/quote]
That's fine, I'm all sorted for Christmas anyway...
I grew up with the very same motley crew round the Christmas table, it's like most people's Christmas really, isn't it?
It's just the term waifs and strays I take issue with, all our guests were invited as guests, not rounded up like stray dogs being allowed in beside the fire on a stormy night 🤷🏻‍♀️

Curious but maybe that is to do with how your “waif” status comes abojt and his permanent / formative / transitory it is? If you have been in care for many years, never adopted and abandoned by the system you might feel differently to if you have a random one or two christmases as a single adult? Or maybe as you say, people are just differently sensitive, which is the case for almost everything.

Irrespective, If one of your invitees said “that makes me really uncomfortable” I’m not sure what it would cost you to say “oh I’m really sorry, I hadn’t thought about that” and try to find another term?

Well we only invite MIL and her DH because they'd be home alone otherwise. She's neither a waif, nor a stray, but it's only out of pity that we invite her. I'd actually rather have a genuine waif or stray for Christmas lunch.They'd probably have better manners.

I think it’s rude to deliberately misunderstand a term that others use with Gentle affection. It’s so well-known and accepted, usually with smiles, and yet you decide to be offended by it. 🙄

I thought it was a fairly standard phrase in the context of Christmas dinners? I.e. if a bunch of strangers/friends cannot get home for Christmas, they all come together and have a waifs and strays dinner instead.

I wouldn't be offended to be called a waif or stray specifically in that context, mainly because the concept is really lovely. Can't have the Christmas you planned? Not to worry, celebrate it with a bunch of people in the same boat and make some new friends.

Why do you think they were inviting you OP?

I wouldn't be bothered by this if I was younger, or working overseas, or if it was a mutual thing, like a group of single people deciding to spend Christmas together.

But I would find it really patronising and depressing if I was older and single, divorced or widowed, or otherwise isolated. It's not the same as 'the more the merrier' or being made to feel part of an eclectic group. It's much more like being referred to as a lame duck.

The 'if you don't like it, don't come' tone of some replies has a real Lady Bountiful air. if you're hosting someone who doesn't have any other options, it's not particularly kind to draw attention to that, unless you want to make a big deal about how lovely and generous you are.

Other people refer to Christmas dinner at mine as "Lyra's waifs and strays" but it's always with affection.

Plus there's no Lady Bountiful as we're one of those hideous places where everyone splits the cost (It's usually Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing day we're all together). It just so happens that we have space for everyone and we're almost in the middle, geographically, between everyone who wants to get together so it was suggested we are the annual location and everyone chips together

It was actually DH's late FIL (DH was widowed when we met) who coined the phrase about it. He was amused because instead of people switching to alternate years when they become attached, or going off to do their own thing, they tend to bring new partners and, sometimes, in-laws too.

No-one is remotely offended by the phrase and they all know they're welcome because they are family or friends

Even as a joke or said with affection, to me it’s so patronising. It’s pretty much implying you’re begging for scraps of both food and affection.

You seem to have misunderstood how jokes work. The whole point is that if you're making a joke, you are not implying those things - an affectionate joker would never say 'waifs and strays' if they were referring to people who really were penniless, friendless and homeless. Just as you wouldn't call someone an orphan as a joke if you actually meant that they had lost their parents.

Admittedly people should always judge their audience when using jokey ways to refer to people, but I doubt people would expect anyone to be offended by lightheartedly saying 'waifs and strays'.

an affectionate joker would never say 'waifs and strays' if they were referring to people who really were penniless, friendless and homeless. Just as you wouldn't call someone an orphan as a joke if you actually meant that they had lost their parents.

In fact both of these things have happened to me! (I mean I had only lost one parent but was estranged from the other, so it was near enough the bone..)

Also, a lot of this depends on who you are including as “waifs and strays” - some people are using it to mean extended family, which is very different to (for example) a colleague or acquaintance from school / church / hobby that happens to be on their own. You often have no idea quite what anyone else’s backstory is in that situation (or indeed many others).

Haha, absolutely not. We had a joint waifs and strays Christmas meal every year for years. It was a fantastic day, always. Spent with friends as opposed to families. You're being too sensitive. If someone is kind and nice enough to take you in, enjoy it

And there it is again. Someone is being nice and kind and taking you in, and you should be delighted. How incredibly patronising.

A friend of mine once said to me that I could go to hers for Christmas once my mother had died and I would therefore no longer be going there. She said it as “when your mother’s dead you’ll come to us, you’ll have nowhere else to go”. Ehh, I will have somewhere else to spend Christmas actually, my own home, which I’ve left year after year to go to my mother’s, because that’s what she wanted and she wouldn’t leave to come to mine. And I certainly don’t want to be a waif/stray/charity/poor Sammy hadn’t anywhere else to go so we asked her here.

"I’m sure it’s said with affection. That’s not the point really."

That's the whole point. It's meant with affection.

If someone is feeding me and cooking for me and hosting me they can call me what they like 😁

If someone is kind and nice enough to take you in, enjoy it!
Have you spectacularly missed the point, GoGirl?
Or was that just a pisstake?

Irrespective, If one of your invitees said “that makes me really uncomfortable” I’m not sure what it would cost you to say “oh I’m really sorry, I hadn’t thought about that” and try to find another term? I don't think I'd have a problem with that! And a couple who come every now and then are from long term care, that's why they don't have an extended family to go to. They usually ask in about October if it is OK to satry into mu Christmas.. their words "Stray into your Christmas", but if they objected of course I wouldn't use therm. I'm not sure why you think it would be an issue. I'm just saying I don't see it as any kind of insult! As you say, different sensitivities!

if you're hosting someone who doesn't have any other options, it's not particularly kind to draw attention to that, unless you want to make a big deal about how lovely and generous you are. How do you manage that sleight of hand. You know they are alone fo Christmas, they know they are alone for Christmas. Everyone else in the room knows they are alone for Christmas, hell most people in my house at Chrostmas would be allone for Christmas. They even sing that bloody Darlene Love song repeatedly

Maybe I should cancel Christmas

I guess some people are used to engaging in mild ribbing and banter with their friends and family and some aren't. And some people can't help but see unkind intent even when they know it's not really there. Surely you know whether you're genuinely welcome or not? I wouldn't be considering Christmas (or friendship at all) with someone if I thought they were inviting me in order to be condescending and look bountiful. I mean, who on earth does that?!

Curious I’m only highlighting that there seems to be a (broad) divide on this thread between people speaking from a host point of view who mostly see nothing wrong with the phrase. And those who have been / are “waifs and strays” and are mostly saying that they find it a bit upsetting. When I said “you” i apologise I did not mean you personally, just from the general point of view of the host why people are so defensive about the idea that their terminology might not be most sensitive.

If your friends refer to themselves as straying in, that is fine. I hope you all enjoy your Christmas.

I've been both host (bountiful but not Lady) and waif and strayish.

As a stray I would rather judge on how much I enjoyed the day(s) and be happy to participate and bring food/wine/games along.

But I can see why hearing yourselves considered waifs and strays would be upsetting. It really depends on the hosts and your relationships with them. And whether it's "come to a waifs and strays lunch" or you overhear some numpty saying "I'm having the usual waifs and strays".

Well, I'm speaking from the host point of view, not the strays, and I still find it nauseating...
Some posters are still not getting the distinction between "all us expat waifs and strays should gather together and have a big bash" and an invite to join you at your table extended to someone you consider to have no other options, purely because they have no other options.
If they're wanted for themselves, they're just a guest like any other.