Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

One aspect of this that I may have not fully understood is when her children ask for lunch , if lunch is never affordable to the friend why do they ask ? They must know their own DM is not going to pay or does she on the occasions they are out as a family unit without you ?
How old are the DC ?
I think she's a cf that is using you for what you for treats out

Can you break the cycle without referring to the money eg
If you are due to meet up set an alarm eg for 30 minutes before lunch time and say so sorry we need to go as we have to get back for something (eg relative visiting or tradesman etc) and be strict about it - get up and go home.

If children ask about lunch you say no we have to go but you go if you want to.

Say in advance of coffee time /lunch time you are feeling unfit due to lockdown so you are cutting down on cakes/chips/ whatever, but don’t let that stop friend from going with her dc if she wants to.

Take a couple of bottles of water so when dc are all hot and sweaty and ask for a slushy say no we haven’t been to the dentists for months so have some water if you’re thirsty but if friends dc want one then go ahead.

Does she never bring her own/dc drinks (Tap water is free) or snacks or offer to do you a favour that doesn’t cost her money?

I have been in situations with mega rich family members and I have had not two pennies to run together. I would refuse on grounds of being unable to afford and maybe another time. Or if I accepted it was in my mind that I would get the bill or at least be able to contribute. YANBU in my opinion

What shines through here to me is how deep and special this friendship is. You both sound lovely. Do you think that a reason she subconsciously directs her kids to you is that she is afraid that if she says NO to her kids there is still an opportunity for you to say yes to yours, which would point out the disparity to the kids in stark terms they are probably already aware of?

@ThirdThoughts

I know you have said that you would appreciate acknowledgement but she does say thank you.

Even free gestures she may not have the capacity to come up with an execute at the moment. Poverty, particularly a sudden change into deeper poverty is so stressful. She's just trying to survive at the moment and may be so deep in her own very real worries and wading that shame swamp to consider that she might be of use to someone else. Or maybe she is crocheting you something nice for your birthday or Christmas at the moment, you can't know.

There can be something socially uncomfortable (for both parties) about giving and recieving when it is this unequal.

[ quote] Until we can receive with an open heart, we are never really giving with an open heart. When we attach judgement about recieving help, we knowingly or unknowingly place judgement on giving help.[/ quote] - Brené Brown

That is what you are struggling with. Though your generosity of the past several months have given your dear friend an escape from her poverty, and you love your friend and on some level have wanted to do this - you have also begun to question her character for accepting when she cannot reciprocate.

Please don't judge her. People have said she has no pride. Maybe she doesn't, maybe she's that low that she doesn't feel she can afford it. Maybe letting you treat her is a little indulgent escape. Maybe she trusts that you are that close a friend that she doesn't have to hide it from you.

Pride would have her cancelling, leaving early, coaching her children not to ask for in public what yours may reasonably ask for. Pride is pretending everything is fine when it isn't. Pride is hiding her needs so you don't feel uncomfortable. Pride is not only not asking for help but not receiving it when it is freely offered.

That isn't what you want, is it? That's not what a close friendship is about, that's for neighbours and MILs and the PTA mums at the school gate. It's not for our best mates.

Poverty is not comfortable to watch. But it is far less comfortable to live.

If you love your friend (and you must do, you have done all of this for her so far) then you have two choices:

1. Do days out in a way that she is on a more equal footing - such as the bring your own snacks doing a free outdoor activity. (You say the sandwiches save you £20 but don't solve the problem - but they do, because you don't have the gift that isn't being reciprocated).

1. You continue to treat her to the nicer days out at a level (frequency/duration/average spend) that you can cheerfully give with an open heart. And work on your boundaries so that you can say no confidently and cheerfully. Brené Brown also says the most wholeheartedly generous people typically have strong boundaries - when you can trust yourself to say "no" when you need to, it is much easier to be generous with others.

This

You say you don't understand what it's like to be in her financial position at all. Presumably, she has no understanding of what it's like to be in your financial situation either. As a result to her you paying for these things may seem like something of no consequence to you at all - loose change. She's never had the experience of having money like that and may think paying is inconsequential for you.

Oh. Update.

I asked how her weekend was. She's been painting two rooms of the house and would like my advice on carpet samples.

I'm really quite miffed now. If you can redecorate a couple of rooms, you can get one round of coffee in.

I think perhaps she thinks, it's inconsequential to me. I understand that thought process. But now I'm really irked about the lack of manners in any form of gesture, when it appears it's not entirely out of her reach.

I am pleased she has managed to get together some funds for carpet and paint. Hopefully she will feel a bit more at home.

Yes, you're right. Anything to make her feel better about the new property should be seen as a good thing. Now I feel like a git for thinking, "well, if you've got the money for paint and carpet....".

This sounds like a good chance to engineer a visit to her house!

but you have seen the problem which is that if you are too generous to someone then you wrongly start to think you can judge their financial priorities. I think if you reign in the "treating" it will reset the friendship. but it may be too late and too much water ice cream and pizza under the bridge.

She is your friend, paying for stuff is bothering you so stop it then you can continue with the good bits of your friendship. Breaking the habit by meeting outside mealtime is probably the most diplomatic approach. Would be nice and help set boundaries to let her know in advance "shall we go to park Tues? Could meet you after lunch. Is 2pm OK?"

OP your tone has changed dramatically over your posts. I'm really pleased your friend has managed to get some decorating done, I know only too well crippling loneliness and self worth of being so ashamed. She's your friend and you love her, I don't see the issue given you barely notice it. You certainly can't make judgements on her buying paint to decorate her home just because you pay for coffee, you've fallen into a trap there.

I know my tone has changed. This is on seeing the sheer volume of people who said they had been in DF's position, or indicated that if they were, they would not allow their children to ask me directly for things at that frequency, out of sheer manners.

Is it possible that at the start friend would try to intervene and stop children asking and did the awkward "no we can't have a slushy" then you stepped in to say "I will get them" frequently enough that it became pointless to discourage them? And initially friend intended to get the next one but could never justify a round of 4 slushy and a couple of coffees. She might have been embarrassed and thought "next time I will make sure we head home before coffee" only for time to run away again, and the kids are having fun and you were all having such a lovely time that it was easier to go with the flow and continue. Then eventually it became the norm and friend is still very grateful but has accepted this is the dynamic now and you are such a good, kind and generous friend you really don't mind.

If you aren't happy with the situation of course you should reset the boundaries. But try not to think badly of an otherwise good friend.

Remember your friend is embarrassed by her home that she hasn't invited you around. She finally has been able to put some money to the side to make it quite decent for herself and child, don't be miffed, let her make it nice and maybe she then will invite you over

You've set the precedent, so she probably feels less awkward as it's been going on for a while - but no, it's not reasonable to expect her to take a turn if that means blowing her week's food budget on coffee and cake.

Take inexpensive cake and squash next time you go out, say you're economising/saving/ a bit concerned about job stability or whatever - see if she gets the hint and contributes more.
If she doesn't take the hint, maybe suggest another time that you'll bring snacks, can she bring drinks along.
Even if she only brings tap water in a bottle, it's breaking the pattern that;s been set- & it doesn't mean you can't treat her occasionally.

EveryDay puts it well about your having set a precedent, I think - is the problem here now that you think about it a lot, but she doesn’t think about it before? As I said upthread, there is a tendency in human nature to feel entitled to things that have been the case for a long time. If that’s the case, I can see why that feels irksome, though....nobody likes to feel used or taken for granted. And I do think she’s out of order letting her kids instigate the requests, whatever the circumstances.

I think, ultimately, you just need to decide how much you value this friendship. Clearly, once you’ve thought this way, you can’t “unthink” it, so it’s pretty clear that something fundamental has changed in any case. So you either carry on and bite your tongue, try to re-engineer the situation, or give her up as a bit of a user.

Form the sound of it, I’d be inclined to try the re-engineering approach; you’ll then get some sort of sense about whether she’s only keen to see you for the treats and freebies....or whether she’s genuinely just become a bit thoughtless about it out of habit. So that means meeting after lunch (or going home for lunch “for a delivery”), telling your kids not to ask for ice creams etc and batting back any requests from hers. Again, as I said before, kids are usually pretty guileless and may well come out with something that gives you pause for thought (be it “we only ever have ice cream when we’re with you” rather than “mum said you’d buy us one” - that sort of thing).

I do feel for you, actually - you sound torn between not wanting to feel mean and begrudge her the odd coffee to really being quite cross that you think you’re effectively being used. And it’s impossible for a stranger on the Internet to judge which is the side you should come down on....

is the problem here now that you think about it a lot, but she doesn’t think about it before?

Before? At all. Bloody autocorrect!

Yeah... Update absolutely now suggests its how she chooses to spend her money, rather than not having the money at all. She takes advantage of you, probably because of a combination of your expendable income and having set this trend for so long.

If you value the friendship enough, just stop the trend you have got yourself into by leaving before lunch or bringing a drink with you for the kids etc.

I am not poor by any means, but I do not have endless money just to spend every time we socialise, on treats and extras. As you can see, it adds up. So just pull back now and go home for the ice ice cream, hopefully she will get the hint eventually.

Wait, when did she move? In our area the council will provide rent credit / vouchers for decorating when you move in rather than council paint it for you beforehand. No flooring is provided. In our case we had to borrow money for carpet as the floors were dangerous for a toddler, but the painting had been done by the council as part of the renovation before we moved in.
It took a long time to pay off the carpets, if she isn't in a position to borrow she may have been struggling to save for them.
They rip flooring out, even if it's new, at the end of a tenancy here.

I too am in the 'just don't have treats while together' camp to reset any expectations that might have built up.

OP originally didn't want her kids to have to miss out, hope that is now resolved.

@Courtney555

Oh. Update.

I asked how her weekend was. She's been painting two rooms of the house and would like my advice on carpet samples.

I'm really quite miffed now. If you can redecorate a couple of rooms, you can get one round of coffee in.

I think perhaps she thinks, it's inconsequential to me. I understand that thought process. But now I'm really irked about the lack of manners in any form of gesture, when it appears it's not entirely out of her reach.

It's likely she has received decorating vouchers from the housing people if she has only just moved in. It's cheaper than them paying a decorator to do it. Is it possible one of her family members has offered to pay for carpets for her? Or maybe if she is on Universal Credit, I believe there are advances you can get, that you then pay back but I'm not 100% sure. Look on the bright side of it OP - once she's comfortable and not embarassed of her new home, she should be able to have you and your DC over for a reciprocal coffee and cake 😉

I think perhaps she thinks, it's inconsequential to me
Stop guessing what she thinks. It's doing you no good and you're damaging your friendship based on speculation. Talk to her instead.

If I were poor and so upset about my house that I didn’t want even my mother to see me at home, or my close friend, then OF COURSE I’d prioritise time and cash for paint and carpets over ice creams and coffees.

How can anyone not see this?

The kids shouldnt be hinting around lunch or snacks though. Op maybe change meeting times. Awkward money topics! I say you eating at home.