Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

Maybe mention you buy your own as your saving for something

From your picnic comment I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy just going to Greggs or a spoons 😂 these might be more within her affordable budget and you could suggest she grabs the sausage rolls your get the cakes just as a start? Even if it's one occasion xx

@Courtney555 have you ever been to her house.Are you sure she's as poor as she's making out

Not letting you go to her house,is weird.

Could it be bugging you because you have racked up how much it all is and that whilst it's nowt to you it's huge to her.
Could it be the fact that actually that tenner towards the bill, she doesn't actually have spare?? That she really is that skint.

Could it be it's the fact that you've realised that the normal frivolity your used to is an unnecessary extravagance to her but she feels she has to go if she wants to see you, maybe she feels shite saying anything about something which is apparently only a tenner.

Maybe you need to see that you don't need to spend anything to enjoy someone's company or to have fun.

Going for coffee etc is only fun if you can afford it, that has to apply to both of you and it doesn't and that's the problem.

We have friends who are very wealthy - but we don’t let them buy stuff every time. Like If they come over for dinner we either make it or buy the takeaway for them and vice versa. They have offered us use of a villa but we’d struggle with the air fare, they wanted to buy us tickets but we wouldn’t accept it. I think a friendship isn’t about money at all, your friend should pay for herself OP, to expect it every time isn’t right.

With these particular friends we tend to do things that don’t involve money - walks, cards, backgammon etc which we all enjoy anyway.

It’s not the fact you can afford it - it’s the fact that you feel like you are being taken advantage of.

Yes Warsaw, that's exactly how I feel. Just that she's the one that I feel should be suggesting the lowest cost alternative because at the moment, she's the one not being able to drive to mine, and isn't comfortable in her new house, so it's at her choice that we're "out' on each occasion.

And too the dear poster who felt it necessary to trawl through other threads to find out the savings I had at that point. Oh dear. My money is via my husband. And not your concern.

I'm not rolling in money but would never let someone pay for me...i'd just rather not go out if i couldnt pay my way...dont people have any pride anymore?

It's completely fine to treat your children to ice creams, slushies and lunches on days out but do you have to treat them on days out with this particular friend? I know you're dismissive of the picnic solution but taking your own snacks would be an easy solution for this issue with this friend. It would also be a simple way to discuss the problem.

Yes Warsaw, that's exactly how I feel. Just that she's the one that I feel should be suggesting the lowest cost alternative

But it sounds like it is low cost activities but then you decide to add on ice cream or coffee. Just bring snack is instead and mention to friend that you are cutting back on wasting money so bringing refreshments and suggest she does the same. It probably difficult/awkward for her to say no when offered especially in front of dc

Ooh difficult.

You've clearly slipped into a pattern of behaviour and that's impossible to get out of without a conversation.

If the money isn't an issue, continue but if it is you could say "we've had a change in finances (don't say what) would you mind paying for your own treats and lunches going forward?".

It's not an unreasonable request and I'm sure she'll be fine.

If she asks what your financial strain is just say you'd rather not disclose as it's very personal and relating to DH... she won't press you further.

Personally I'd not word it as pay for your own lunches. It's clear she can't afford that and will cause an awkward situation. Easier just to breezily say 'I'll be bringing snacks/drinks/lunch for my guys today as covid has made me realise how much I'm wasting or something along those lines.

@ThirdThoughts what a very odd notion of British manners you have.
If you'd read the thread and actually interpreted it correctly, you'd also clearly see that the friend doesn't have those conversations with her children, she doesn't ever deter them or try to attempt to tell them no, she allows them to turn to OP and ask them herself. She's a cheeky taker. I sure hope she's a good friend because she sounds maddening.

Ask her themselves *

OP - how much do you care about and value the friendship?
Were you always the one with a significantly higher disposable income?

I remember being very poor. I was ashamed. I did not have children at the time, but equally, I would let others pay for me if they offered as I had literally £6 to live off each week after rent was paid. I would not have offered to pay for others as i simply could not afford to - i was also worried they would suggest expensive ideas that I would not be able to join them on. I was not ignoring the other people, I was simply too sad and ashamed by my own predicament - I was not trying to guilt people in to paying for me but I just did not know what to say.

I feel for your friend - she is letting you make the decision because she will always have to say no.

Does she ever complain about what you buy for her or her children? Does she always say thank you? These are the things that would determine if she is a CF.

If she is grateful and you care about her and you can afford it - why not start thinking about the joy you are bringing to her and her children's lives? Her life will not always be like this and you may just be the friend who is helping to get her through it. Lives change - my disposable income is huge now and I have not forgotten those who helped me.

I get pleasure in helping others whether paying for friends less well off or giving to charitable causes. Sometimes it is nice to give without the expectation of receiving when the other party simply has nothing to give.

You need to acknowledge that you like to do nice things and if you want to do them with this lovely friend that it costs you. If you are prepared to do cheap/free things you will get balance back. Not sure I'd be cutting back on seeing my friend because they were poor.

Naturally, if your friend is completely ungrateful, and complains then she is a CF and run like the wind. But, otherwise, perhaps think about how you are helping someone because you are in the fortunate position that you can.

You have choices, but some of them may not reflect as well on you.

OP, I would be cheesed off at never having an offer. She could bring a pack of biscuits/some squash for the kids. If She offered to pay for lunch, I'm sure you would say "no", but lack of an offer is grating. I think the indirect making you the bad guy is probably not intentional and more about her not having the means to say yes, so looking to you to see if you're willing to pay.

I worked with someone who would have lunch every week with some friends, order something small and pay for hers separately. Without fail, they'd always offer her a glass of wine from their bottle, she'd always take one, she never contributed- not even once in a while. After a while it rankled them - cumulative effect - a few offers, they would have said "no", but lack of an offer or even a returned drink once in a while pissed them off.

I think there are a lot of emotions at play here.
Its not so much the money in your case, although it does seem you do spend a lot and I am sure it could be used differently (does your DH have any views on the money being spent this way) but being taken for granted. It seems there is not thought in your friends head about the finances and the worry is that she is only your friend because of the money you spend.
I find it strange where some commentators say expect to see her less if you don't pay- There are loads of things you can do which are free and still allow the kids to have fun.
I don't totally blame your friend either- this is the routine you both have and she has got used to it.
I suggest you do things that are free, and arrange for both to bring foods for their families. just do this for sometime until you have broken away from the normality of you paying.

Op, I hope you don't mind, but I looked back at some of your other threads. I don't know whether you're still with the guy from 2018, but he was financially very abusive.

Now this friend is abusing you financially. She really is. Most of us would warn our children not to ask our friends for food/drink/treats. Most would come prepared for a bottle of something and some snacks. It doesn't matter that she'd prefer something nicer - wouldn't we all? We all work within our means. This friend doesn't. She doesn't even work within your means - she doesn't ever say, "Are you sure you don't mind? Can you afford it?" She's abusing you as much as your partner was.

Do you think you have to bring money to the party in order to have friends and partners? You are enough on your own, you know. You sound great, but you do sound as though you feel you have to offer more than just yourself. You really don't.

I partly think it comes down to how wealthy you really are. If you're a Russian Oligarch or similar then, yeah, why not pay for it all

However, if not, she really is taking the piss

Interesting someone mentioning "you are enough" and all that

Maybe your friend is subscribing to this belief about herself!

@MamaFirst I really did read the whole thread before posting. I was unaware that there was a a correct interpretation. If that was the case there would be very little to discuss.

The OP has said that her friend is embarrassed when she pays and says thank you and makes sure her kids say thank you. She has said that she doesn't think her friend is a cheeky fucker right from the off.

She also said that at first her friend would say to the kids not right now or let me think about it and then the OP would privately offer to pay.

Somewhere along the line, this slipped and instead the OP feels she doesn't get a chance to decide without the kids watching and finds it difficult to say no.

It's not great that it slipped or that the OP doesn't say no when she wants to. But I don't think it's either of them being very unreasonable, it just became a bit of a habit which needs resetting.

What I meant by the British manners thing is it does seem that combination of being polite and judgemental. The OP wants to be seen as generous and bountiful (expressly not the villian saying 'no') but is realising that her friend is repeatedly taking up the offer and now is starting to be judgemental about her character for accepting what is offered. That does seem a bit stereotypically British, though other nationalities may do the same.

The obvious answer is not to offer more than you are comfortable with giving. But in Britain we often have this confusing dance of making offers which we'd quite like people to turn down.

As for whether her friend had these conversations with her children, we cannot know. I can only say that I tell my son not to ask and yet he does. There's a good chance the reason she doesn't react in the "proper" way to that is because she is too busy wishing the ground will swallow her up. I have been there. And yet her child will keep asking because the OP keeps saying yes, apparently looking as if she enjoys treating them all. It is bloody hard for her then to say "I said no" and break up the party when the friend seems happy to oblige.

She is being unreasonable. Has it always been this way?

@HollowTalk no, I don't mind

Not with that chap anymore. Very happy with DH. Who is extremely successful. We're in the top 2%. And I should point out, we still go to carboots, because we both love a good deal

I think when I compare to other friends, it's not at all about her making any kind of financial gesture in return. But for example, one of my friends is coming round Friday to help me spray the weedy bits on a brick path. I didn't ask. She just knows I'm doing it, and said, want a hand?

That's not because she feels she owes me anything. It's just nice to offer.

I get that the friend this whole post is about, can't just pop over because she can't afford the fuel. And if she did offer, I'd pick her up, and probably do lunch and tea for all of us, because that's normal if you have someone round at that time. It's just she hasn't offered in all this time.

Is there a reason she doesn't want you to come to her new place? Is she ashamed of it for some reason? Have you ever been there?

I asked further up but not sure you replied. Does she have a partner? If so could he be financially controlling?

I think it's the dynamics of this particular friendship. We have a large discrepancy amongst our social group about what people can afford, for various reasons but we always seem to work it out without causing offence.

I'd say your drifting apart a bit because you should be able to discuss it with her. Although it's difficult to let her children down, I'd have to start there.

My own concern will be that I've said no to my own children and then yes because other children have asked. That might cause my children upset, as why did you only say yes when they asked? When they're older they might get their friends to suggest things to get what they want.

A way out could be to say no to your children and then no to hers and then say to your friend that you're trying teach your children that no means no as the boundaries are getting blurred, and when you say no in other areas they are expecting you to relent. Then change the subject and move on.

The whole thing is odd. If you can’t go to each other’s houses you can’t be real friends. What type of friends don’t go to each other’s houses when you have children this is not normal at all. This is becoming a bigger issue than it needs to be. I would not mention any kind of “money talk”. Be the bigger person and just change some of your ways refuse your friends suggestions of going out just say “no I cannot afford it at the moment” it will completely change the dynamics of the situation and your friend will think twice about letting you pay for everything. There does seem to be an element of control here if you can offer your friend to be picked up to do your garden you can offer and say your cutting back on spending however I’m happy to pick you up and do lunch at my house..

It seems your not willing to give up your high expectations of your friend. Also if your so wealthy and your in 2% top earners i definitely would help my friend out until she got back on her feet.