Who pays

[Courtney555]

If you were significantly better off than a really good friend, and it made no difference to you, whilst they were on a tight budget, would you always pay for coffees, (non extravagant) lunches etc.

I was going to put circumstances, then realised they were irrelevant as we are both nice, decent people, just one of us is really financially comfortable, and the other, for very genuine reasons, has very little money.

I love going out with her and our DC, we deliberately don't pick places with high entry fees (we both have children), but for example, if we go to the park, I'll buy everyone an ice-cream. If we meet for a Starbucks, I'll get the bill.

It's just kind of every time. And it's bugging me a little. She's not being entitled or a CF who could afford to pick up the whole bill herself. £20 I don't notice on a round of coffee and cake, is a tangible part of her weekly disposable income. I think there's an element that she knows it's negligible to me, so feels quite comfortable about it. And I don't begrudge it, I love her to bits, but when it's every time, I just think, once a month, she could say, "let's split it."

It's never anything over say £30, and I'd hate the thought of saying "shall we go halves" and her to feel obliged, then that was the money for her and DC dinner.

She's not a freeloader, truly, she's not. If it sounds like she is, it's my error in how I've worded this. I'm arguing internally, that, "£20/30 doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"...."but then 5 times a month, that's up to £150, which is a lot for her to be ok with accepting as treats"...."but the spend over a month doesn't affect me, so what's the problem"

So, AIBU. If we have a great time, as do our DC, and it's of immaterial consequence for me to pick up the tab for sundries, and very material for her, do I just keep doing it?

Or, just because it's immaterial, doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it? Or more to the point, because it's a very material amount to her, should she be ok with accepting it on every occasion.

Myself and a family member have very different views here, would like to see general consensus.

(Quick clause, before this runs off on a stealth boast tangent, I hope people have the clarity to see this is not about being "significantly richer than yow" )

OP the fact that she is too embarassed to allow anyone into her house speaks volumes about where she is mentally right now.

That. She won't even let her mother see it. How depressed does one have to be, to not even let one's mother see the proof of how horrifically your life's gone to shit?

She can't drive to you, OP. She had no money for gestures. And in some ways, even thinking about reciprocity is going to bring her situation home to her even more. She knows a packet of value biscuits brought to the park is going to look worse than nothing (especially given that in normal life neither of you would countenance a sandwich and crisps lunch), so she brings nothing. She knows a 29p packet of choc chip cookies would make you curl your lip.

So what's she to do other than thank you? Well that you have to model to her. Say no to the kids. Say it's time to go home for lunch, rather than hanging the trip out past lunchtime.

But to be honest the heartfelt thanks from her and her kids would be enough for me, given her awful change in circumstances and what it's clearly doing to her mental health.

She could bring a pack of biscuits/some squash for the kids.
She could, but she knows that that wouldn't be good enough for the op so it would be embarrassing for her to do this.

Why would she offer to help weed, when she can't get to your house. She can't presume you'll pick her up.

A small bunch of flowers occasionally would go a long way though. Equally, it wouldn't hurt you to lower yourself to have completely free days out with just a cheese sandwich.

Ok, just stop offering and reset the dynamic. It's probably just the pattern you've both fallen into and if she's being a bit cheeky, you need to educate her into knowing this isn't acceptable. There are lots of suggestions on here on how to do that.

@saraclara perfectly said!! 👏👏

Seriously, @Courtney555Courtney, please don't send her that message way back in the thread, or express any dissatisfaction with what she's doing. The more I think about it, the more I think she must be depressed and seeing no way out.

Hearing that she won't even let her mum see the house, has really got to me, and it should have to you. I can only imagine what it would do to her to have you say anything that implies she's taking advantage of you or should be paying for more. You could actually send her over the edge. She'll be absolutely mortified and worthless, especially knowing that she absolutely CAN'T pay for anything beyond that value packet of biscuits that will make you sneer.

I don't even know this woman and I'm hurting for her.

I wholeheartedly agree with @saraclara who has been very insightful throughout this thread.
To use the picnic example, she knows you’d turn your nose up at her store brand biscuits and cheese sandwiches. She cannot win with you. Her gestures are limited because she has money and you prefer the finer things in life. I’m passing zero judgement if you prefer things like quiche and strawberries with cream but can’t you see that your lifestyles have become too incompatible? I can’t see how this friendship can continue. It’s sad but you’re both so different.

^^oops, I mean ‘she has no money’

Good point @Haenow

It must be very tough to think of a gesture which would be acceptable to the OP so I begin to see why it's easier for the friend to just keep quiet on that front.

It is very tricky to keep a friendship going in these circumstances, when something had to give. The easiest way is to either just pay for everything as if it's the most natural thing in the world or adjust your lifestyle and don't eat or have treats when you are out.

I get the impression the OP wants to keep her lifestyle and have a more equal relationship with someone who just can't keep up.

@Haenow

I wholeheartedly agree with *@saraclara* who has been very insightful throughout this thread. To use the picnic example, she knows you’d turn your nose up at her store brand biscuits and cheese sandwiches. She cannot win with you. Her gestures are limited because she has money and you prefer the finer things in life. I’m passing zero judgement if you prefer things like quiche and strawberries with cream but can’t you see that your lifestyles have become too incompatible? I can’t see how this friendship can continue. It’s sad but you’re both so different.

I completey agree with this.

Op, from your updates it seems to me that your friend is embarrassed to bring up the change in situation and is just keeping her head down so she doesn’t have to discuss things. That doesn’t mean that df is right or yabu to feel the way you do about things. I would feel a little taken for granted without some small gesture, and as you quite rightly say it doesn’t have to be financial. I would do as pop’s have suggested and just mention in passing that COVID has made you realise just how much you are spending on pointless things such as coffee and you will be looking to save money going forward. Df and I have had this conversation many times recently and none of us struggle for money so it isn’t an unreasonable suggestion and should avoid an uncomfortable conversation.

I would feel very uncomfortable as the recipient. I'd be bringing extra homemade snacks and trying to pay you back in kind if I couldn't with cash.

@Hippee

I'd be bringing extra homemade snacks and trying to pay you back in kind if I couldn't with cash

And how would you feel if OP turned up her nose at those offerings and insisted on 'real' treats? Or even suggested that she only valued what you couldn't afford?

I was with you at the start and have lost sympathy for you with every update. I say this as someone in your financial position, not your friends. There is nothing she can offer you you’d appreciate or like, and is embarrassed to discuss that with you.

@saraclara

What your kind and lovely response suggests I suspect is way way beyond the empathy levels of the OP sadly.

I genuinely just wonder how much people are increasingly valuing money over people. And it makes my heart sad.

This woman has gone on about how dear a friend this person is. Then increasingly in this thread it’s very clear that she does begrudge paying the amounts (how anyone else is reading anything other than that is beyond me).

All I can say is if this OP was my ‘dear friend?’. I think I’d prefer enemies. This whole thread has left a really horrible taste in my mouth. True friends are gold dust. Cherish them.

Money comes. Money goes. And yes having money is nice. But the latest time I looked the best memories (and rib breaking laughter?). Came from my closest friends. Money was not a factor.

I know you have said that you would appreciate acknowledgement but she does say thank you.

Even free gestures she may not have the capacity to come up with an execute at the moment. Poverty, particularly a sudden change into deeper poverty is so stressful. She's just trying to survive at the moment and may be so deep in her own very real worries and wading that shame swamp to consider that she might be of use to someone else. Or maybe she is crocheting you something nice for your birthday or Christmas at the moment, you can't know.

There can be something socially uncomfortable (for both parties) about giving and recieving when it is this unequal.

[ quote] Until we can receive with an open heart, we are never really giving with an open heart. When we attach judgement about recieving help, we knowingly or unknowingly place judgement on giving help.[/ quote] - Brené Brown

That is what you are struggling with. Though your generosity of the past several months have given your dear friend an escape from her poverty, and you love your friend and on some level have wanted to do this - you have also begun to question her character for accepting when she cannot reciprocate.

Please don't judge her. People have said she has no pride. Maybe she doesn't, maybe she's that low that she doesn't feel she can afford it. Maybe letting you treat her is a little indulgent escape. Maybe she trusts that you are that close a friend that she doesn't have to hide it from you.

Pride would have her cancelling, leaving early, coaching her children not to ask for in public what yours may reasonably ask for. Pride is pretending everything is fine when it isn't. Pride is hiding her needs so you don't feel uncomfortable. Pride is not only not asking for help but not receiving it when it is freely offered.

That isn't what you want, is it? That's not what a close friendship is about, that's for neighbours and MILs and the PTA mums at the school gate. It's not for our best mates.

Poverty is not comfortable to watch. But it is far less comfortable to live.

If you love your friend (and you must do, you have done all of this for her so far) then you have two choices:

1. Do days out in a way that she is on a more equal footing - such as the bring your own snacks doing a free outdoor activity. (You say the sandwiches save you £20 but don't solve the problem - but they do, because you don't have the gift that isn't being reciprocated).

1. You continue to treat her to the nicer days out at a level (frequency/duration/average spend) that you can cheerfully give with an open heart. And work on your boundaries so that you can say no confidently and cheerfully. Brené Brown also says the most wholeheartedly generous people typically have strong boundaries - when you can trust yourself to say "no" when you need to, it is much easier to be generous with others.

Until we can receive with an open heart, we are never really giving with an open heart. When we attach judgement about recieving help, we knowingly or unknowingly place judgement on giving help. - Brené Brown

Posting the quote neatly because it is an important one and deserves not to be lost in my rambling post.

@Courtney555 I know it's day since you posted but wanted to ask,
So you think that she doesn't tell her kids no when she's out with you because all the time she's on her own that's all she says. Also does she rely on her days out with you for treats like ice cream sweets etc because her kids wouldn't get days out at all with her.
I've been in her position and it's so heartbreaking saying no all the time and knowing that once a month my kids got a treat because of a friends love and kindness it would mean a lot.
I also think she'd be ashamed to admit without you her kids wouldn't get any days out.
I haven't said this to guilt you into doing the days out just wanted you to see it from someone who knows your friends side

I hope her work hours can improve. You are truly a great friend. 💐

Pride would have her cancelling, leaving early, coaching her children not to ask for in public what yours may reasonably ask for. Pride is pretending everything is fine when it isn't. Pride is hiding her needs so you don't feel uncomfortable. Pride is not only not asking for help but not receiving it when it is freely offered.

Pride meant that my small children couldn't go to their playgroup Christmas party a few decades ago. The £1.50 each charge plus a small gift for santa to give them was entirely beyond me at that point.

Someone offered to pay for me. They said that they and their children (my children's friends) wouldn't enjoy the party as much if we weren't there, and I'd be doing them a favour by accepting. I didn't. I was very stupid not to. The gesture was wholehearted and genuine, and two adults and four children lost out because of my stupid pride.

I now volunteer for an organisation that helps people in dire need. But we can only help them if they'll let us and if they can let that pride go. And I watch their internal tussles desperately hoping that they can find the strength to say, "okay"

Did you send the text you drafted? If not I wouldn't friend would he mortified and you are likely to end friendship.

Much easier to stick to low cost activities, don't let the day run into lunch and snacks and say no to her children (as well as your own) ideally warn your children not to ask you. When they run over roasting and thirsty get them some water, and the others too.

If it were me, if I felt used I would want to put a stop to it. If not and affordable I would happily continue.

Normally the saying is "give an inch and they will take a mile" but the real problem is when you give a mile and they take still take another inch.

This just poisons the generosity and the friend is very wrong to allow the OP to be bounced by the children into paying for things that the OP has not freely offered.

Once this behaviour is "noticed" it becomes impossible to unsee it - and also it can becomes the background driver for all future interaction.

Hopefully is will be possible to "reset" the relationship by refusing to pay every other time and maybe OP can prime her own children in advance that there is not going to be pizza/ice cream that day. maybe a bit passive aggressive but perhaps OP can say "don't ask, don't get!" to her own children if they are pleading.

I’ve been the OP here and I can see both sides, to be honest. It’s nice to share with/treat your friends, but nobody wants to be used as a cash cow....and I think the OP is understandably struggling with the balance here.

It does sound a bit extreme on the friend’s part, to be honest; in that position, while you might accept, say, a coffee on a regular basis, I think you’d make damned sure that your kids were told in no uncertain terms not to ask for things from another adult. That’s just good manners rather than excessive pride. Fine if the OP wants to offer a lunch out or round of ice creams, different if she’s effectively bounced into it.

On the flip side, I’ve spent many an afternoon in the park with snacks from home that I haven’t particularly enjoyed....because I enjoy the company of one particular friend who isn’t as well off and prefers to do that. I would much prefer a cafe, but she wouldn’t. So I compromise for the sake of the company.

I think it’s understandable that the OP is struggling with the lack of reciprocity, actually - reading between the lines a bit, she's starting to wonder if she’s being used a bit. And that’s a tough one - a) because when you start to think that you can’t “unthink” it and b) because the friend obviously doesn’t have the money to treat the OP or even to pay her way with the things that the OP likes to do. (She doesn’t sound like one of the “subsidise me because I can’t afford that because I’m saving up to go to Florida” types; it’s not that she’s not prioritising OP in her discretionary spending, it’s that she doesn’t have the money to spend.). So then OP only really has two choices: carry on or stop it. And only OP can judge how much she enjoys the company and friendship of this woman.

@NataliaOsipova

I really appreciate your post. You've completely understood the issue. I really feel it's manners too. I'm happy to offer, and I do feel, exactly as you put so so well, that it's less me offering, and more "bounced into it."

I think, as well, my DF could bring a pack up, but she also would not like that. I've never known her to go out with a prepared lunch, whether I'm there or not. I think there's an underlying tone throughout this thread, that just because that's within her means, she would be inclined to do that. With prior example of swimming, if I could no longer afford the pool, I would not start sea swimming because it was free. I just wouldn't swim. Neither would she. It's not because of the cost that is/isn't involved. And neither is it due to snobbery, on either part. People are allowed to dislike things, for whatever reason.

Again, it's about the manners, indirectly through her DC. I've declined to meet up this weekend, so I can think properly about how I can deal with this, without making things awkward going forwards.

“The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the life too closely examined may not be lived at all.”
Mark Twain

@Courtney555 That’s nice of you to say so!

One of my DH’s favourite “sayings” (and it applies across a range of contexts, but it just occurred to me here) is that if you do something for someone else on a regular or ongoing basis, then they end up feeling entitled to it. And then aggrieved if it is taken away or no longer offered, because they no longer see it as a bonus but a right. And I wonder if your friend (and her kids, although one can hardly lay the blame at their door) has fallen into this trap a bit? She’s stopped seeing the lunches and coffees as a lovely gesture on your part, but just what happens as part of a day out with you?

I take the point about the picnic lunches etc - clearly, that’s a red herring and it appeals to neither of you. I think if I were you, I’d test the water a bit. If you arrange to meet up with her at 10, be open from the start that you are going home for lunch because you have a delivery coming. See how that goes down a couple of times (and remember that kids are often pretty guileless, so you may get some feedback from them!). I suspect if you could make peace with the fact that she’s just understandably a bit low/embarrassed about her circumstances and enjoys and appreciates the odd treat, you wouldn’t think twice about it. But nobody wants to feel used or as though someone else is taking advantage.

I suspect that your day is being engineered by DF (meeting up at that time, etc...) and she is probably also conditioning her kids to sidle up and beg you for lunch, knowing you’re not going to say no to them, so that SHE can eat out and have access to nice things that she can no longer afford, etc... I think she may be a bit of a CF.