Inappropriate Father-Daughter relationship? *TRIGGER*

[SandMason]

Hi all. I’d really appreciate your views on my childhood relationship with my father. I feel something was not right but I don’t know how to understand it or what to call it. I’ve used impersonal language because writing ‘I’ and ‘me’ in this context makes me queasy. Here is some of what I remember:

• Daughter and her younger sister being naked a lot, around the house, for no particular reason, aged up to 5 at least
• Father naked a lot, around the house, likewise no reason
• Home video of daughters playing naked, aged 4 and 1, filmed by father
• Father and daughter age 5 showering together, and daughter asking him to ‘turn his willy inside out’ (retract foreskin). Daughter rushing to get younger sister to see this ‘magic trick’. Him doing it.
• Daughter, naked, in parents’ bed alone with father ‘tickling’ her lower abdomen right above pubic bone, drawing swirls with his finger. Aged under 5
• Holidays abroad including trips to naked beaches with parents’ friends, male and female, all naked. Up to age 6(?)
• Every Saturday visit with Father after parents split (daughter age 9+ up to mid-teen) involving swimming/sauna, Father getting changed (naked) with daughters whenever possible. Father mocking daughter’s attempts to change discreetly as prudish
• Father making comments about daughter’s developing breasts being ‘lovely’
• Teenage daughters sunbathing topless on family holidays, allowed and encouraged by father
• Father and wife taking daughters (age 13 and 10) to mixed Turkish baths in Turkey, daughters go topless. Father paying for them to have ‘Turkish massages’ by middle aged men in full view of everyone, ‘masseurs’ running hands up daughters’ legs and inner thighs under towel. Father and wife watching
• Father commenting frequently to daughter how ‘sexy’ women are (e.g. celebrities)
• Father and girlfriend having sex loudly in room next to teenage daughter, father going to bathroom naked afterwards
• Father entering bathroom while teenage daughter in bath to take a pee or brush teeth
• Father choosing for daughter’s A-Level school photography project a photo-story with sexual nudes
• Father asking adult daughter how the sex was in her marriage and whether she had stitches after childbirth
• Father hugging adult daughter after drunken argument (him drunk, not her) and pushing his hips against her as she tries to wriggle out of the hug

AIBU in thinking a lot of this is not okay? How would you feel if this was your daughter? Or if this was you? I’m still trying to get to grips with it after years telling myself it’s nothing out of the ordinary, despite having a creepy feeling around him. All comments welcome. Thanks for reading.

Sorry OP, I missed your earlier question about what helped. Busy doing bedtime!

Big pause.

I don't know. Honestly. I never acknowledged it as anything untoward until I was quite old (maybe mid-late 30s?) and even then I didn't actively do anything about it. What could I do? Tell him I know he's a creep? That would destroy him, because he loves me, and I'm completely aware even as I write this that I'm still excusing him and minimising the harm to me because, well, y'know, he's just like that. And I still believe he would be shattered if he thought he's done anything wrong (I think??) And it was the 70s after all, and, well, it wasn't actual proper ABUSE or anything, and he's just a slightly out-of-touch with modern mores old buffer these days.
Should I tell him the reason he's never left alone with my girl children? I cannot begin to imagine the fallout from that. So no, I won't do that either. Tell my mum? No, that's a pretty dysfunctional relationship. Tell the police? Tell them what, exactly?

I've had counselling, mainly to help me to be a better parent myself as I am a pretty angry, intolerant person who's made a lot of dubious choices in life, and my parents were less than ideal in lots of ways, but I've never touched on that aspect of things really.

I dunno. I know now that it wasn't right, I suppose that helps a bit, and I remind myself that the fact I didn't object at the time does not make me a willing participant. I can't allow myself to feel shame about parading around (almost proudly) in a suspender belt and stockings at the age of 9, cos it is entirely reasonable in those circumstances to believe that the only reason you're doing it is to show off how grown up you are under the loving and entirely benevolent gaze of your parents.

It's only when you're older you start to blame yourself. Resist that line of thinking, I suppose, is all I would say.

@Pineapple1

Turn this around.

If this was the mother doing this, would you all shouting abuse?

Wise up will you?

You have no place on this thread.

None of this is OK. How are you doing, OP? Is there something specific that prompted you to start processing all of this now?

That was so horrible and uncomfortable to read, OP. I hope you are ok. It was abusive. Big virtual hugs.

@Pineapple1

Turn this around.

If this was the mother doing this, would you all shouting abuse?

yes, because my mum did similar. Not the same, but similar. The close friends that I have told mostly think she must been out of her tree.

I would find someone professional to talk to and maybe consider reporting him if you feel up to it. There is also a very good book by Dr Jessica Taylor called: 'Woman In Progress - reflective journal for women and girls subjected to abuse and trauma.' It's very useful and might help you to make sense of it all.

Being naked, when very young, with parents, can be fine, if it is ‘matter of fact’ - as in - a parent still usually baths a child up until 5 years. Sometimes an adult being naked in their own room and child barges in by mistake. Ok.

However what you have described crosses the line many times. And it also highlights to me, that that ‘grey area’ - being natural and naked sometimes within family when very young - that it is best we really do teach and practice privacy as much as we possibly can. All of us, in our family and home. There is the ‘cringe’ factor which is the start of a dependent, a minor child, not being comfortable and we as the adults need to take the lead and do this as early as we can.

The touching your body is the one that stands out very much to me.

Hearing your dad having sex - in the next room - that’s life really. Being naked as a child sometimes - ok. Going to the bathroom naked in the night - not great but not awful as chances you are going to bump into kids is slim.

But combined with ‘tricks’ in the shower, and touching you sometimes, and encouraging you to be naked - the questioning of your sex life and commenting on your growing body - well that paints a dark and much more uncomfortable picture, and isn’t nice. It breaks down your boundaries, which is what abuse is. It has broken your relationship with your father, because the trust and boundary isn’t there.

It sounds like you need to process it and decide how you interact with him, and maybe get some good advice.

I'm so sorry this happened to you, OP. You deserved better from the people who were meant to protect you. I think you know it is abuse because you protect your own children from it.

Yes, some of this could be seen as normal in isolation, or in a different context -- but the key thing that is a red flag for me is the continued violation of your boundaries.

I wonder whether it might be healing for you to raise this with your sister and say how you feel about your father? It sounds like your view of your mum's likely reaction is probably right -- after all, on some level she enabled or turned a blind eye to allow this to happen.

I also wonder whether you've heard of NAPAC. They have some excellent therapeutic resources. They offer support by email and phone, as well as (in normal times) support groups. napac.org.uk/

Before reading any of your experiences op you said something didn’t feel right - I don’t need to read on for your to clarify anything that you felt that is enough.

But I did and it was very very uncomfortable reading and very very sad.

Please be kind to yourself

I don’t think I said to push the cringe factor or tell children what to feel. Or even bring up sexuality. Why would we bring that up? Where did I say that?

It’s not modesty it’s privacy I think. And for children to feel that their bodies are their own.

Children cannot take the lead, they have no understanding of the world. We still need to bath kids and help them dress, up to a certain age. So it’s only for reasons of them needing us to help them, and until they grow out of that dependency - that is the boundary in my book.

Op I haven’t rtft, but honestly, as a victim of child abuse, it won’t actually do you any good rehashing old ground. If you need counselling seek it. If you need, and think you can get, justice then seek it. But just having some randoms agree it wasn’t right won’t make you feel better in yourself. I mean this in the kindest possible way but move on. Don’t let your past define your future. I let the past drag me down for so long when I should have focused on healing. The past cannot be rewritten but the future is yours and yours alone.

*Turn this around.

If this was the mother doing this, would you all shouting abuse?*

Yes, we would, because it would still be abuse. Wise up.

OP, I think it can be hard to accept what has happened when there is no "clear cut" sign. For example - if a father rapes his daughter, this is clearly abuse. But all this generally weird, inappropriate behaviour is much easier for him to hide behind. He can tell you that you're just very close. You're just being prudey. He's just really laid back about sex. He's just a touchy feely dad. Society is warped. You are ungrateful and looking for things that aren't there.

It's all bullshit. You were abused. I'm so sorry OP.

I'm so sorry you've had this in your life.

I worked in child protection service for many years.

This was 10ft high neon letters abuse...

He was grooming you... He was very gradually pushing the boundaries with you... So even if you didn't like it, it felt normal... And when you're a young child you lack the ability to articulate it.

It also creates a perverse dyad, with someone you're supposed to have a loving, trusting relationship with, having a relationship with you which is ALL about their (sexual) satisfaction.
So you're kind of caught in a double bind.

In terms of help;
The NSPCC can be really helpful in talking issues through and whether a complaint would be progressed/ and also its likely impact on you . You can do this anonymously.

There's a woman called Carolyn Spring whi does some fantastic clips - she too is survivor of CSA. Look her up some of the videos she does are aimed at survivors... They're excellent.

Good luck!

PS
I'm wondering - did you end up not living with your dad as a child? As these sort of behaviours tend to escalate?

Good morning and thanks again for your comments, especially those with stories and suggestions about healing.

The fact is I’m not actually in therapy atm, I was before but I became frustrated she wasn’t helping me join the dots. She would say that’s my job, but how many years would that take me at 70 quid a week? Especially as my brain wants to find any excuse to deny all this was wrong. I’m even finding a part of myself wanting to latch onto @SickOfNorthernExile ‘s arguments about nudity to rationalise the lot.

I can’t really explain why I need strangers on the internet to tell me what I think I already know. I just do. You are helping me in ways I couldn’t have anticipated, your stories, your kindness, the time you’ve taken to post, I’m really grateful.

@SickOfNorthernExile as someone who has to think twice about blowing raspberries on my 9yr olds tummy, I found your comments helpful. Thank you.
I suffered CSA so am paranoid about what is normal and what could be construed as inappropriate. As a result we have no nudity in our home over age 5. It’s always “undies on please”.

@SandMason I’m so sorry you went through this. Please don’t blame yourself. I’ve been there and done that, it doesn’t help recovery. Hope you get the support you need.

@SickOfNorthernExile

I didn’t misread your comments, no way did I think you were trying to rationalise abuse. I was giving an example of how my own disordered thinking will (at times) clutch at straws and twist things to make it not real. I should have put that more clearly, sorry.

Thank you for taking the time to post on here, your comments have made me think and helped me clarify a few things, as I’m sure they have for other posters as well.

Nudity by itself is a grey area and lots of people have different perspectives on it. That’s kind of why I wanted to read a range of comments, to have a certain confirmation that nope, in my context when you put it all together it still seems wrong.

I really appreciate your thoughtful response

OP, ime, no normal man would ever show a child, any child, the 'penis trick', its sick and abusive and I feel so sorry for you that he did that.

I wish you peace and hope very much that you find it.

Just running around naked ,and playing is innocent enough in itself.However I think all these things together seem massively abusive to me .WTF in the shower, and taking you both along topless for a massage FFS! He is definitely out of order here .What about your Mum where was she in all this ? Or was she scared of him /being coerced by him to think its normal!! I never saw anyone naked at all until I met my DH!

I don't really have much to add but I just wanted to say that I am so sorry.
However you choose to move forward (and you do have a choice here) please know that you don't have to do this alone.

Your counsellor didn’t sound that helpful if she wasn’t getting you where you wanted to be with your understanding. But hope this thread has helped.