Inappropriate Father-Daughter relationship? *TRIGGER*

[SandMason]

Hi all. I’d really appreciate your views on my childhood relationship with my father. I feel something was not right but I don’t know how to understand it or what to call it. I’ve used impersonal language because writing ‘I’ and ‘me’ in this context makes me queasy. Here is some of what I remember:

• Daughter and her younger sister being naked a lot, around the house, for no particular reason, aged up to 5 at least
• Father naked a lot, around the house, likewise no reason
• Home video of daughters playing naked, aged 4 and 1, filmed by father
• Father and daughter age 5 showering together, and daughter asking him to ‘turn his willy inside out’ (retract foreskin). Daughter rushing to get younger sister to see this ‘magic trick’. Him doing it.
• Daughter, naked, in parents’ bed alone with father ‘tickling’ her lower abdomen right above pubic bone, drawing swirls with his finger. Aged under 5
• Holidays abroad including trips to naked beaches with parents’ friends, male and female, all naked. Up to age 6(?)
• Every Saturday visit with Father after parents split (daughter age 9+ up to mid-teen) involving swimming/sauna, Father getting changed (naked) with daughters whenever possible. Father mocking daughter’s attempts to change discreetly as prudish
• Father making comments about daughter’s developing breasts being ‘lovely’
• Teenage daughters sunbathing topless on family holidays, allowed and encouraged by father
• Father and wife taking daughters (age 13 and 10) to mixed Turkish baths in Turkey, daughters go topless. Father paying for them to have ‘Turkish massages’ by middle aged men in full view of everyone, ‘masseurs’ running hands up daughters’ legs and inner thighs under towel. Father and wife watching
• Father commenting frequently to daughter how ‘sexy’ women are (e.g. celebrities)
• Father and girlfriend having sex loudly in room next to teenage daughter, father going to bathroom naked afterwards
• Father entering bathroom while teenage daughter in bath to take a pee or brush teeth
• Father choosing for daughter’s A-Level school photography project a photo-story with sexual nudes
• Father asking adult daughter how the sex was in her marriage and whether she had stitches after childbirth
• Father hugging adult daughter after drunken argument (him drunk, not her) and pushing his hips against her as she tries to wriggle out of the hug

AIBU in thinking a lot of this is not okay? How would you feel if this was your daughter? Or if this was you? I’m still trying to get to grips with it after years telling myself it’s nothing out of the ordinary, despite having a creepy feeling around him. All comments welcome. Thanks for reading.

Not OK.

Nowadays this would be grooming.

I understand that a lot of this sort of thing used to go on in different times but that still doesn’t make it OK.

Definitely inappropriate. If the little voice in your head was telling you it was wrong, it was definitely wrong! Trust your instincts.

OP your therapist may advise you about protecting other children, but I don't know what their professional ethics would be around that especially if you aren't in the UK- they might want to prioritise your wellbeing (good) but not feel you have a responsibility to other possible victims. I think you could speak to the NSPCC anonymously and find out what your options are. I would hope that you could tell someone like the police and give them full details of your father and allow them to decide what/if anything further needed doing.
having said that your main responsibility is to recover. Any harm suffered by you or anyone else in the past or not is HIS responsibility.

Quite a bit of it could legitimately be valid cultural/personal differences, but everything combined, especially most of the stuff when you were older is wrong

Wtf?

I felt physically ill reading and had to stop.

Sexual abuse. Tell the police. It's not too late. I'm disgusted. So sorry op .

@StillWeRise

OP your therapist may advise you about protecting other children, but I don't know what their professional ethics would be around that especially if you aren't in the UK- they might want to prioritise your wellbeing (good) but not feel you have a responsibility to other possible victims. I think you could speak to the NSPCC anonymously and find out what your options are. I would hope that you could tell someone like the police and give them full details of your father and allow them to decide what/if anything further needed doing. having said that your main responsibility is to recover. Any harm suffered by you or anyone else in the past or not is HIS responsibility.

My therapist asked me if he had contact with any other children, if he would be alone with children etc..

I said no family had contact with him and he was friendless.

She said she wasn't putting pressure on me as none of this was my fault or my responsibility, but if I ever heard of him having contact with a child I should consider contacting the police.

That was wrong, you need to report him to the police.

In my case it wasn’t a secret between the siblings, we all knew and talked about it, and told my mum we wanted him out when I was late teens. She did divorce him but had always turned a blind eye and minimised it.

What helped me - it’s been a long slow process. Lots of therapy. Having my own DC helped because I was able to form a new parent child relationship where I love and protect them, and also it helped to make it clear to me how my parents didn’t love me. Since having dc I’ve become much tougher and less of a doormat with my mum and siblings as it’s always been very dysfunctional and I felt responsible for them (I’m the oldest). My mum has always been massively critical and unloving but demanded love and adoration from me. I stood up to her and said no more. I still see her but rarely and I don’t take any shit. Through this process I also realised that my low self esteem was making me endure a bad relationship (my ex-p wasn’t like my dad, but he was like my mum) and I left him. I feel much better now in lots of ways but i’m still a work in progress.

Being honest with myself is at the root of coming to terms with it. Admitting to myself it was shit, and accepting that. I did a mindfulness course that helped with that, but you need to tread carefully as it can be triggering too. I’d focus on therapy first.

I don’t think it can ever “go away” but it’s only a tiny aspect of me now. I don’t think about it a lot and when I heard he’d died I felt calm.

Everything up to age 6 that you've listed, apart from the bnaked in bed swirling of finger could be fine if he was a naturist. But it wasn't because of what cane afterwards. And he's definitely not a naturist because those guys have a totally different attitude to the naked body - the majority anyway. His behaviour wouldn't be tolerated for long in those communities.

Also, it's NOT normal to have mixed Turkish baths in Turkey! That's maybe a tourist thing, but there's no way in hell Turkish women are getting virtually naked and massaged by semi naked men in bathhouses!!! It's very strictly single sex!

I'm really sorry though. It's disgusting what he's done. I'm glad you're NC, glad you have a therapist and glad you have some RL support.

You did nothing - ever, not one tiny little thing - wrong or to encourage him. He was 100% responsible for everything that happened. You didn't deserve what he did and you deserved a father who treated you and your body with full respect.

@Newschapter

Thanks for sharing your story. Especially the bit about where your sisters are now, all suffering from MH issues as a result... I’m so sorry. Are they getting some support too?

I also went through anorexia, bulimia, teenage promiscuity and an extremely unhealthy/damaging marriage. I’ve read that those traumatized in childhood often have a habit of re-traumatizing themselves into adulthood. It’s just such a sad cycle. I hope we can all break out of it.

You are obviously and in my opinion rightly disturbed by all of this. A similar thing occurred in my family but with my sister only not me. We have both lived with these feelings for years and years and at one time my sister was thinking of going to the police, however when my father got old and sick she dropped it but it still bothers us both. He is dead now so too late to do anything. I do not know how to advise you but if you are feeling worried about this then I would talk to someone who can help. In my opinion if you reported this all hell would let loose. Whether you can cope with this is something you must think about. I am sorry that someone else has had this happen to them.

I also went through anorexia, bulimia, teenage promiscuity and an extremely unhealthy/damaging marriage
ditto, was also groomed and abused by a family member over a long period of time, and yes I dont know when it started, although I had hypnotherapy under which I said it started when I was aged 2.
He is a despicable sexual predator, I hope you can find peace and healing, being tricked like this by someone you have also been programmed to trust is very damaging and I think can predispose you to various types of self harm, by that I mean situations where you are (ostensibly) complicit with the harm being done to you.
It's as if your ability to spot bad people is just mangled and you are drawn towards them:(

@SandMason I may have missed it, but do you have children yourself?

My dd (an adult now) has a great relationship with dh, one that I am sad to say I have been envious of many a time.

Dh knows my history, I told him before we were married. He has only ever been a massive supporter. My psychotherapy almost cleaned us out financially, but the lightness I felt after many months was priceless.

I had eating issues too, but the opposite to anorexia, I also have zero confidence and often believe myself to be "stupid" - his favourite label.

But I know I'm not stupid, I am adored by my husband, I have good friends and my children can sleep in their beds at night without making their stomach turn keeping an eye on their bedroom door handle. And no amount of money can buy that peace or contentment.

@Ulterego

I’ve nothing to add but just wanted to send all of you who weren’t safe with your parents, the people who are supposed to protect you, love and strength. This thread is such a sad read. OP, that man should be jailed for what he did

@Ulterego

being tricked like this by someone you have also been programmed to trust is very damaging and I think can predispose you to various types of self harm, by that I mean situations where you are (ostensibly) complicit with the harm being done to you.
It's as if your ability to spot bad people is just mangled and you are drawn towards them

I agree. And I’m so sorry you went through all that.

Thankyou Newschapter
for you also and everyone else who has suffered these acts of sabotage of innocent children.

It has taken me decades to understand what happened and see through the web of denial, dismissal, trivialization
I want to punch them all repeatedly in the throat but they are all now dead or elderly/gaga.
We can still speak out and shine a light for other people though.

My sister told my mum when she was 16, he eventually went to prison for it. He's in his 80s now, married to a teacher, retired now I would assume.

We all struggle still tbh, I've had to accept I won't ever be "normal" (PTSD/anxiety) and it gave me a sense of freedom, it's okay to not work if I'm bad, I don't have to be sociable or associate with people that make me uncomfortable, etc whatever it takes to be happy however unconventional it may be.

I've had CBT which helped, treating the anxiety with medication, meditation, etc.

I'm happy now, I have bad days still but overall I'm fine and you will be too.

@Newschapter

Yes I do have 3 children, my father only met the eldest a couple of times, briefly, in my presence. Never saw the younger 2, and probably never will.

A lot changed when I had them in terms of what I was willing to put up with from both my parents. As though it was fine for me to suck it up all those years, but I drew the line when it came to my kids. I wonder if I’d have done it without them...

It did take a 20 year marriage to a mentally abusive partner to fully understand why I made that choice. Because I was primed to be abused from birth practically, it felt familiar. So messed up. But now I have a lovely DP who respects and looks out for me..

SandMason Sat 27-Jun-20 19:38:22
To the PPs who have kindly asked about my wellbeing, I do have RL support, thankfully, and have been NC with him for over a year. The final straw was him telling me I look exactly like this actress in a tv show he watched - in which the actress gets repeatedly raped. He seemed to be delighting in telling me how much I look like her (I don’t but whatever)
...........
Oh how gross. I sincerely hope you told him how wrong he was to say that and that he knows why you have gone non contact.

It sounds as though your mum needs a wake up call and if you and your sister can find the words to talk about this, that would be good. Maybe she is on Mumsnet and will read and recognise what you've said here.

I'm so sorry, op, and glad the monster is now out of your life.

Turn this around.

If this was the mother doing this, would you all shouting abuse?

Report him, my friends husband was sick!!!
He drew pictures of his dd doing sexual things on him. He looked after daughter whilst her mum went to work, their curtains were never open till gone 11am!!
(Which I thought at the time, surely dd can’t still be asleep)
Before he dropped her off at gm house for her to look after.
It all came out when his dd(first marriage) told her mum. His second wife found the pictures
But never brought it up with him
Wtf !!! (She told me when court case was happening)
His dd (2nd marriage) was questioned by police (well dept in there,) I don’t know wether he’d done anything other than drawings!!!
As I was to embarrassed/shocked to ask

He got send to prison and put on sexual register

Also, it's NOT normal to have mixed Turkish baths in Turkey! That's maybe a tourist thing

I’m sure it is a tourist thing. I’ve been to Turkey 3 times and each time attended a mixed massage (I’ve also had a mixed hammam in Marrakesh) where you sit in a sauna with lots of others watching while you each have a turn to lay on a hot marble slab type thing while a man massages you. And yes they go right up the thighs and over the boobs etc. There have been families in there together all taking turns and laughing about it. While it might be creepy for some, other people might not think anything of it especially if it’s been sold to them as the cultural thing to do when in Turkey - which it very much was to me in the hotels I stayed at. Which is why I said earlier that I can see that going either way on the inappropriate scale, obviously depending on more context.

@pineapple1

Really helpful that

This post has sickened me. Your father need reporting, you have been abused.