Inappropriate Father-Daughter relationship? *TRIGGER*

[SandMason]

Hi all. I’d really appreciate your views on my childhood relationship with my father. I feel something was not right but I don’t know how to understand it or what to call it. I’ve used impersonal language because writing ‘I’ and ‘me’ in this context makes me queasy. Here is some of what I remember:

• Daughter and her younger sister being naked a lot, around the house, for no particular reason, aged up to 5 at least
• Father naked a lot, around the house, likewise no reason
• Home video of daughters playing naked, aged 4 and 1, filmed by father
• Father and daughter age 5 showering together, and daughter asking him to ‘turn his willy inside out’ (retract foreskin). Daughter rushing to get younger sister to see this ‘magic trick’. Him doing it.
• Daughter, naked, in parents’ bed alone with father ‘tickling’ her lower abdomen right above pubic bone, drawing swirls with his finger. Aged under 5
• Holidays abroad including trips to naked beaches with parents’ friends, male and female, all naked. Up to age 6(?)
• Every Saturday visit with Father after parents split (daughter age 9+ up to mid-teen) involving swimming/sauna, Father getting changed (naked) with daughters whenever possible. Father mocking daughter’s attempts to change discreetly as prudish
• Father making comments about daughter’s developing breasts being ‘lovely’
• Teenage daughters sunbathing topless on family holidays, allowed and encouraged by father
• Father and wife taking daughters (age 13 and 10) to mixed Turkish baths in Turkey, daughters go topless. Father paying for them to have ‘Turkish massages’ by middle aged men in full view of everyone, ‘masseurs’ running hands up daughters’ legs and inner thighs under towel. Father and wife watching
• Father commenting frequently to daughter how ‘sexy’ women are (e.g. celebrities)
• Father and girlfriend having sex loudly in room next to teenage daughter, father going to bathroom naked afterwards
• Father entering bathroom while teenage daughter in bath to take a pee or brush teeth
• Father choosing for daughter’s A-Level school photography project a photo-story with sexual nudes
• Father asking adult daughter how the sex was in her marriage and whether she had stitches after childbirth
• Father hugging adult daughter after drunken argument (him drunk, not her) and pushing his hips against her as she tries to wriggle out of the hug

AIBU in thinking a lot of this is not okay? How would you feel if this was your daughter? Or if this was you? I’m still trying to get to grips with it after years telling myself it’s nothing out of the ordinary, despite having a creepy feeling around him. All comments welcome. Thanks for reading.

[JustC]

@Pineapple1

Turn this around.

If this was the mother doing this, would you all shouting abuse?

Absolutely yes! Are you insane? I consider the mum just as guilty for turning a blind eye. Let alone if she did what he did.

[Fuckityfucksake]

@Pineapple1

Turn this around.

If this was the mother doing this, would you all shouting abuse?

Yes!

[SandMason]

@Iexperiencedthattooxx

It is always difficult to explain when people ask about family, how do others manage?

I just skirt the issue and change the subject. Or say something vague like ‘we’re not that close’. I know I shouldn’t but I just feel so ashamed of the whole situation, like I’m the baddie for cutting them off. I hope that will change in time.

[SandMason]

@SquidwardTortellini95
Thanks for the term. For some reason naming it seems really important to me right now. PPs have said (and they’re right) that I should trust my feelings about it and maybe one day I’ll have the strength of character to do that, but right now I need others to help me name the demons. So thank you for the precise and specific term.

[SandMason]

@TheTrollFairy
Glad having your DD brought you the strength and perspective you needed. I think having kids can be healing too, in the sense you get to care for them and protect them in a way you were never cared for or protected. You can (try to) become the parent you wish you’d had, if that makes sense. It never goes away though, at least it hasn’t for me, yet.

[hardboiledeggs]

I actually feel sick to the pit of my stomach reading this. No none of this is ok, abuse pure and simple.

[81Byerley]

Really, really not right. I hope you're ok.

[SquidwardTortellini95]

So sorry, OP. I've not read the whole thread but I'd just like to say how sorry I am to hear what you experienced. You were absolutely abused. This sounds like what is termed 'covert incest'. Basically, even though there was no actual sexual contact, it is still sexual and emotional abuse as your father treated you as he would a sexual or romantic partner rather than as his child. He sounds like an utter creep and I'm happy you no longer have any contact.

I hope you're okay OP

[TheTrollFairy]

A lot changed when I had them in terms of what I was willing to put up with from both my parents. As though it was fine for me to suck it up all those years, but I drew the line when it came to my kids. I wonder if I’d have done it without them...

It’s funny the strength having your own children bring. When I had my DD I had that lightbulb moment of knowing I would never see my dad. I was already NC but I think there would have been situations where I would have seen him. Since having DD there is no situation I would now see him under.

Some of your points singular (to a point) are normal from my perspective. DD loves running around naked (she’s 4) and we don’t cover our own nakedness from her in normal situations like if she’s in our room whilst we are getting changed and I do think some people would consider walking around their own house naked after having kids BUT when you add this to everything you have been through it’s no ok.

[jessstan2]

SandMason: She went along with the nakedness, though I didn’t find hers as disturbing. Only a bit cringey when other people were around. She has zero boundaries and often behaves in a sexual/flirtatious way with men.
...
Oh my goodness, how embarrassing! When others were around - you mean like friends? I would die of shame Anyway at least she split up with your dad when you were nine years old so that's something even if it did take an affair. It sounds as though she was completely controlled by your dad and didn't do much better with subsequent bloke.

It's all over now, you know what are acceptable boundaries which is what matters. He didn't manage to corrupt you, thankfully.

[ddl1]

Sorry to hear about this; no it doesn't sound OK. Some families are much more casual than others about nakedness, so the first two items on their own wouldn't worry me so much, but all the rest sounds horrible! Can you get some form of counselling or similar support? I would certainly advise you and your sister to keep any children of your own well away from him, and certainly NEVER to leave them on their own with him. I am REALLY sorry you have had to go through it all.

[ToBBQorNotToBBQ]

Oh gosh, that is NOT ok i meant

[ToBBQorNotToBBQ]

That is ok..... I hope you are ok OP.

[Iexperiencedthattooxx]

I have been busy with DC and dint reply. I have managed with some counselling BF and a supportive OH. Also been Nc with whole family-father, mother, brother. All alcoholics or other substance misuse. Also inappropriate and crossing boundaries when I was young. I’m so sorry you’re gone through this too. It is sad to know it is so prevalent but glad I am not alone. It is always difficult to explain when people ask about family, how do others manage?

[dottiedodah]

MrsKoala Dont think I will be going to Turkey any time soon then!

[ThickFast]

Your counsellor didn’t sound that helpful if she wasn’t getting you where you wanted to be with your understanding. But hope this thread has helped.

[garbagegirl]

I don't really have much to add but I just wanted to say that I am so sorry.
However you choose to move forward (and you do have a choice here) please know that you don't have to do this alone.

[dottiedodah]

Just running around naked ,and playing is innocent enough in itself.However I think all these things together seem massively abusive to me .WTF in the shower, and taking you both along topless for a massage FFS! He is definitely out of order here .What about your Mum where was she in all this ? Or was she scared of him /being coerced by him to think its normal!! I never saw anyone naked at all until I met my DH!

[thebabessavedme]

OP, ime, no normal man would ever show a child, any child, the 'penis trick', its sick and abusive and I feel so sorry for you that he did that.

I wish you peace and hope very much that you find it.

[SandMason]

@SickOfNorthernExile

I didn’t misread your comments, no way did I think you were trying to rationalise abuse. I was giving an example of how my own disordered thinking will (at times) clutch at straws and twist things to make it not real. I should have put that more clearly, sorry.

Thank you for taking the time to post on here, your comments have made me think and helped me clarify a few things, as I’m sure they have for other posters as well.

Nudity by itself is a grey area and lots of people have different perspectives on it. That’s kind of why I wanted to read a range of comments, to have a certain confirmation that nope, in my context when you put it all together it still seems wrong.

I really appreciate your thoughtful response

[Turin]

@SickOfNorthernExile as someone who has to think twice about blowing raspberries on my 9yr olds tummy, I found your comments helpful. Thank you.
I suffered CSA so am paranoid about what is normal and what could be construed as inappropriate. As a result we have no nudity in our home over age 5. It’s always “undies on please”.

@SandMason I’m so sorry you went through this. Please don’t blame yourself. I’ve been there and done that, it doesn’t help recovery. Hope you get the support you need.

[SandMason]

Good morning and thanks again for your comments, especially those with stories and suggestions about healing.

The fact is I’m not actually in therapy atm, I was before but I became frustrated she wasn’t helping me join the dots. She would say that’s my job, but how many years would that take me at 70 quid a week? Especially as my brain wants to find any excuse to deny all this was wrong. I’m even finding a part of myself wanting to latch onto @SickOfNorthernExile ‘s arguments about nudity to rationalise the lot.

I can’t really explain why I need strangers on the internet to tell me what I think I already know. I just do. You are helping me in ways I couldn’t have anticipated, your stories, your kindness, the time you’ve taken to post, I’m really grateful.

[IamtheDevilsAvocado]

PS
I'm wondering - did you end up not living with your dad as a child? As these sort of behaviours tend to escalate?