Guys who say 'I need a woman who can challenge me'

[Stella8686]

Is this ever a good statement? Do men think that women find it an attractive profile line?

Is it just me who reads it as
'I wore down my ex so much that she died a little inside and never spoke up for herself, therefor it's her fault the relationship broke down'

Extreme example above but AIBU to discount guys who say this (online) does anyone like this statement?

I don’t read it as a bad thing.
I’ve said about a friend that she needs a man who can challenge her .

"It just means very clever. Don’t know where it comes from but it’s a term I use and I like it, probably because I can, and will, argue quite vehemently where needed (in terms of robustness, that is) and I can hold my own against anyone. I’d never be afraid to disagree with him nor to hold different views to him. If he’s wrong about something I challenge him. And he likes that because he’s a strong, confident man who isn’t threatened by a strong, confident woman."

do me a favour

The thread is not about people needing or liking to be challenged. it's about men who say that they want a woman who will challenge them. These are different phenomena.

Loving GD's 'comfortable in herself' contribution - which I think is actually the key to this issue. My conclusion, after getting to know the second Mr 'I like you, you challenge me' fairly well (but not going quite so far as to date him), was 'actually, do you know, I think what I'd really like to do now is further my own intellectual development, so that I can challenge myself, fulfill my own potential and feel completely comfortable in myself, my views, arguments and abilities. No fatuous flattery required'. So I did.

I'd thoroughly recommend that any man who feels the need to be challenged does the same.

The question is whether he actually wants to be challenged, to the limits of his abilities, by academics who are far more capable in their subject than he is; who will point out the flaws in his arguments, who won't always award him top marks, or express awe at his greatness.

Someone who genuinely wants challenge, with real intellectual curiosity, someone who is comfortable in himself, would love this. Someone who just wants a buzz about feeling right all the time would not.

I think you are making too much of this.
With this attitude I think you could probably find something wrong in anyone's dating profile.
I want someone challenging- he wants an argument
I want some one caring- he wants someone to look after him
I want some one with a GSOH- he wants someone to laugh at his jokes
I want someone with old fashion values- he is a sexist pig
I want someone with modern values- he is not a gentleman

I have never written a dating profile, but I assume you can't write an essay about yourself or the person you would like to meet but instead need to make punchy points. I would assume it would be quite difficult to convey your true thoughts and ideas.

I don't see this as a negative thing to say.

Maybe he wants an A level maths teacher who would set him some differential equations.

Fucking hell that made me laugh this morning.

I don't want a dynamic where we are challenging each other all the time. Sounds exhausting. I want a kindly, gentle relationship where we get on for the most part but might occasionally give each other food for thought on various topics.

IME being "challenging" soon led to resentment and aggression once the intense initial attraction had begun to wear off.

@bubbleup

"It just means very clever. Don’t know where it comes from but it’s a term I use and I like it, probably because I can, and will, argue quite vehemently where needed (in terms of robustness, that is) and I can hold my own against anyone. I’d never be afraid to disagree with him nor to hold different views to him. If he’s wrong about something I challenge him. And he likes that because he’s a strong, confident man who isn’t threatened by a strong, confident woman."

do me a favour

What? You don’t believe there are decent, quietly confident men around who don’t automatically find an intelligent woman intimidating? You don’t like the term fiercely intelligent or the idea that there are very clever people in the world? You don’t believe I can argue vehemently and enjoy it and that I am perfectly able to hold my own against absolutely anyone in a discussion on any number of topics? You don’t believe that for some people the capability to engage in fierce intellectual sparring is a vital part of mutual attraction?

What exactly is your problem with what I’ve said? I’m genuinely interested...

I consider it a very attractive trait of my DH’s that he listens to me, carefully considers what I say and absolutely views me as his equal across the board - which I am - and in some respects more knowledgeable than him. I learn from him and he learns from me; we both respect each other immensely. I could never respect a man who couldn’t take opposition from me wherever I deem it necessary.

@YgritteSnow

I don’t read it as meaning that – I take it to mean the more general sense of looking for someone who might introduce you to new things and new ideas, and who might enjoy in-depth conversations. Possibly someone who will push you to achieve more because they push themselves. Rather than ‘someone who likes confrontation’ or ‘challenging’ people.

Although I do think it’s one thing to enjoy and be attracted to those things in a partner, and another to include it as a ‘requirement’ on a dating profile. That is quite a ‘challenge’ in itself – it’s a bit ‘throwing down the gauntlet’ isn’t it?!

But did your DH say 'I need a woman who challenges me' on his dating profile, or when you were dating Ninkanink? That is what the thread is about. Not men (and women) who actually want, need and enjoy being challenged.

The only man I've known who's said this to me said this in the context of disclosing that he'd committed domestic abuse against a friend of mine, that he'd initially enjoyed the fact that she was a challenge (therefore hard work, therefore more fun to dominate) but that he'd "had to break her" and now wanted me to be his next girlfriend (all delivered late at night when we were alone together after he'd "white-knighted" me by offering to walk me home). It was fucking terrifying.

Which is why I'd see "wanting a challenging woman" as a massive, massive red flag. To me it screams "because I then want the thrill of wearing her down and winning."

Hugely different from "wanting someone I can enjoy intelligent conversation with", IMO.

The thread is not about people needing or liking to be challenged. it's about men who say that they want a woman who will challenge them. These are different phenomena.

^ this

I have known many men who like someone to challenge them intellectually or ethically, to get them to think about things, to share viewpoints.

I have also known men who would say they want a women who will challenge them.

I have never yet met a man who is in both categories.

Time to bring out Gillian Flynn's cool girl again:

(How do you know you’re not Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”)

I know intelligent people who like intelligent conversations. But I've never heard any of them say, "I'm really clever and I need clever conversation." They just....say clever stuff and find their level.

Throwing down the gauntlet - exactly.

It's also very 'I love the thrill of the chase but quickly become bored'. That was certainly true of my real life examples. Once they'd sucked all the 'challenge' (flirtation, exploration, novelty) they wanted out of one woman, they quickly moved on to the next.

Yeah and they'll probably be the first to treat any woman who does "challenge" them like shit. I find that guys who genuinely want to find women who will have their own opinions and stand their ground don't usually feel the need to make these statements. If they're decent they'll understand and respect women anyway, and expect her to occasionally challenge him without specifically requesting that she does.

@lottiegarbanzo

But did your DH say 'I need a woman who challenges me' on his dating profile, or when you were dating Ninkanink? That is what the thread is about. Not men (and women) who actually want, need and enjoy being challenged.

A man who genuinely wanted that might well think it an acceptable thing to write in a profile. I wouldn’t know as I’ve never had to date online (thank goodness! I’ve long ago resolved that if I’m ever in the position where OLD is my only avenue for finding a man, I’d much rather be alone than ever wade through all that shit on the off chance that I might someday come across someone half decent). That doesn’t mean that any number of arseholes wouldn’t also make that claim.

As others on the thread have said, usually you would get the sense of a person from interacting with the individual; you can tell an awful lot by personal engagement. In that case it’s not necessary to set things out verbally - you make it known in other ways. However, in absence of that, and in such an unnatural arena as OLD is, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that some people might, perhaps misguidedly, try to give a genuine insight into who they are or what they want using terms like that.

Hmm. My real-life, pre-OLD dating experience has taught me that there is a certain something about a man who utters that phrase, Ninkanink , as related upthread; to the extent that I recognised the trope immediately I saw the thread title.

I don’t see it as a negative.

I’m fortunate that my experience with men has been positive throughout my whole life, in every relationship. Which I accept does colour my perception somewhat. I personally wouldn’t see it as a red flag in and of itself, and tbh any man who was interested in me would find himself challenged in many respects whether he liked it or not, so maybe that colours my opinion to an extent as well.

Luckily I’ll never have to navigate the cesspool of OLD and I fully understand, as per my previous comments, that within that arena it is necessary to be extremely vigilant. I don’t envy those women who have had the range of experience of it that has taught them more about this than I know.

Man's a wanker. It's all about how the woman relates to him, not about how they relate to each other. Tosser.

I think it just means their boredom threshold is low and would like someone who is adventurous and up for exciting stuff. They don’t want to say I don’t want a boring homebody because it would offend some.

I've never done OLD either but the fact that so many women who have see this as a red flag (and it certainly screams "wanker" to me) is pretty telling.

Maybe I'm not a mass debater (ahem), but is there really that much highly / fiercely intelligent debate you can have with a partner? What constantly needs this kind of discourse in real life? Can we have some examples?

Broadly speaking, a challenge is something you have to "overcome". As a competitive person myself, I would be wary that the relationship would be exhausting as there would constantly be the dynamic of winning and losing. It also conjures images of him putting his hand in the air and saying THIS is how high you need to jump to impress me.

Tbh, the stuff you've said in your updates would bother me much more though.