To be worried about 5 year old's empathy?

[Devonmum2020]

DD is 5.5 and I'm being driven crazy by her complete lack of empathy.

She bites her younger brother constantly and when we do the "look what you have done, this hurt DS" all I get back is a blank "well he made me mad".

She attacked me badly on Tuesday and I showed her the marks. Her response " I was itchy"

I have been unwell all weekend, DS has been giving me blankets etc and understanding when I have said mummy can't do x because I'm poorly. DD is just kicking off over everything. When I explain that mummy really isn't feeling well there's literally nothing there. She absolutely does not care and it has been meltdown after meltdown.

I don't know how to get her to get it but I'm getting so frustrated :(

I know kids don't develop empathy until 6 or 7 but Aibu to think she should have more than she has? DS is a young 4 and he seems to be able to grasp it.

If you make it really, really simple they can. It’s the ‘itchy’ things she knows that annoys her. Ask her what makes her itchy and see where it goes?

First of all, sympathy. Our 7.5 yo DD is like this, although only at home. But her teachers have been amazing and therefore there's very little problem behaviour at school. We have also been given the runaround by the GP but it's not his fault - it's because absolutely everything has closed due to Covid. I asked around and found a place I could refer her to myself. It has been quite a relief to fill in the many pages of forms. It has made it so obvious where the problems are. This is the service in case it's any help. Hopefully there are similar in other areas. I can't remember the URL but it's called Starjumpz and it's in Kent.

I am cross on your behalf re the school.

@Devonmum2020 But that doesn't answer why school are saying you are using physical punishment and that the problem is at home.

I wonder if your anticipation of issues means you take the "easy" option, where you "give in" as you just can't emotionally deal with the battle that day. I see this quite a lot with some parents (and I have to admit to doing it myself - I have a DC with ASC).

But I would absolutely ask and get it documented why the school are saying this. I see this as your biggest barrier to getting the school onside so you can get assessment for your DD. To me, from what you have said here, she has classic ASC symptoms.

She started school on something like the 16th September and by the 16th October everything had home had massively declined. Meltdowns were daily before and after school. Violence of an obscene level but of course she was fine in school.*

We had this - not at the same age or to the same level but we had violent outbursts. The pressure of school, the over stimulation from noise and lights and everything else at school just caused huge meltdowns when he came home. Home is a safe place to let it all out which is why you're feeling the brunt of it. It sounds like she's now so overwhelmed that she can't hold it in until school finishes.

I thought it was around 2 that children show empathy...my children have and my ds does now (not mirroring at all, not pretending)

I don’t have older children so I can’t speak from experience but my toddler shows empathy and we get feedback from his daycare that they are very empathetic. I would say by 5 they should be able to be empathetic sometimes. Like I said I don’t have much experience though. You sound like a lovely Mum Op

From your updates OP could she be telling school that you hurt her and that’s why she’s scared to go home? And that’s why they keep involving SS? Is this a possibility?

No she hasn't got the communication for that. It's literally just the fact school keep saying that it's learnt behaviour and seeing as it's just me with them at home it's not that she could be witnessing DV. Social services keep closing the case saying there is nothing at all to suggest it and after last week have said they will be making that clear to school.

She both enters and leaves school crying every day and has done for 8 months.

I definitely stand by what I said earlier about considering a different school? Your daughter clearly hasn't settled there, and they don't seem equipped to manage her behaviour or attempt to maintain a relationship with you to resolve this situation, I think they're a big part of the problem here

Try and speak directly to the senco at school, and contact family services via your local authority.

My dd ended up getting excluded twice, first was a 2 day and then a fixed term, from school (she was 7 at the time), before I got anywhere. It was actually after I moved her schools and the second school was so much mite engaged and helpful. They pushed the paediatrician and gp appointments for me.

She's since been diagnosed with adhd and we have the ehcp which funds her to attend a special school for children with her behavioural issues.

If I'd kept her at her original school I'd never have got anywhere.

Have been asking about other local schools on the local SEN and the general consensus is none of them give the impression of being any better :(

I'm surprised she's not been excluded yet. She caused a huge amount of damage and is hurting staff.

Perhaps it's attention seeking behaviour and lack of consequences. Surely if you actually put her on the naughty step or took away the device and screams why can't she have it , you simply reply with "because you hurt your brother and that's not nice behaviour", then she will know won't she?

Also just because your son doesn't behave like that it doesn't mean anything tbh because children are different.

OP I see you say you're on your own. Does she see her father? What's he like?

iwilltaketwoplease Thats a bit myopic. It seems likely there are underlying issues here based on the previous posts and an overall assessment of the different behaviour described.

There's no "surely" about it.

This sounds very difficult. Dd definitely needs more support and school have a responsibility to assist with this. But, and you don’t have to answer this, does dd know that you love her? You spend a lot of time managing meltdowns but do you spend any time just sitting with her? Cuddling? Having a conversation about something other than her behaviour? No blame or judgement as dd clearly needs help, but perhaps worth thinking about.

iwilltaketwoplease

iwilltaketwoplease

Oh please 🙄 Do you really think the OP hasn't tried that? With I suspect total failure for it to work, and a huge meltdown, instead?

Which bit of "lack of empathy" and "not understanding consequences" didn't you understand?

If the child does have a neurodevelopmental disorder, the usual consequences (time out, naughty step, sticker chart, removal of toys or tech etc) will almost certainly very probably mean nothing, other than to make them feel hard done by/punished at the loss of the privilege.

Because that's the common response with parenting methods designed to work with neurotypical children, when dealing with a child, who is not.

Thank you @Catmaiden. Nothing is working in terms of consequences. No matter how simply explained it is or how consistent it is she just cant link it, it's so frustrating. I know they are different children but I can see how younger one responds to consequences and how he can link it and even how when he knows he's in trouble he will say sorry for ... . DD just sees it all as me being horrible to her and genuinely can not grasp that it's because did this or that.

@LuaDipa obviously I'm speaking for myself but I like to think she knows how loved she is. We do special mummy and DD time every evening. We cuddle all the time. When she is melting down she is asked frequently if she is ready for/needs a cuddle.

We don't have conversations but I don't think she can. She only talks to me to ask for stuff or to scream at me. I've tried and tried but I just don't get a response when I try and initiate. It's just odd.

It definitely sounds like ASD to me. Girls are very often misdiagnosed or not diagnosed til adulthood - I wasn't diagnosed until I was 22.

Do some research specifically on girls and autism, as it often presents differently in girls than it does in boys, which is why it is often overlooked.

If you feel if fits, really push with the doctor. They often dismiss it (they did with me as a 10 year old). Provide evidence etc, visit different ones.

If she does have ASD, a diagnosis makes all the difference in the world, it is vitally important.

I found that videoing DS behaviour, and showing school, GP, HCP, CAMHS, Sendco, really helped.

Particularly as a timeline of exactly the same behaviour and words, taken over a period of several years. They saw that this was how he reacted, that was what he did in a meltdown, this was the stim behaviour, and that none of it really changed, over many years.

No suggestions, but you are doing very well, OP.
This is situation is mostly out of your control, and I commend you for searching so hard for answers and doing your very best for your child.
Catmaiden's idea sounds useful.
Lots of love to you xxx

I've no suggestions either, other than you've had some very good advice on this thread about pushing for a diagnosis.
Just wanted to wish you and your family all the best, hopefully you have hit rock bottom and the only way is up.
I hope you and your Dd get the support you need.

Children can be incredibly different, I wouldn't compare them. One of my children would chortle merrily if someone got hurt. Slap stick comedy as far as he was concerned. But incapable of malice. Another has always been uncannily empathic - but highly manipulative. All are getting nicer and all have worried me.

@Catmaiden what child do you know that will happily go and sit on the naughty step? What child likes getting told off? None.

Stick to one form of discipline and stay consistent wether the child likes it or not, wether you have to put them on it 101 times. Just don't give in.

Of course they should feel punished that's the whole point isn't it?