To be worried about 5 year old's empathy?

[Devonmum2020]

DD is 5.5 and I'm being driven crazy by her complete lack of empathy.

She bites her younger brother constantly and when we do the "look what you have done, this hurt DS" all I get back is a blank "well he made me mad".

She attacked me badly on Tuesday and I showed her the marks. Her response " I was itchy"

I have been unwell all weekend, DS has been giving me blankets etc and understanding when I have said mummy can't do x because I'm poorly. DD is just kicking off over everything. When I explain that mummy really isn't feeling well there's literally nothing there. She absolutely does not care and it has been meltdown after meltdown.

I don't know how to get her to get it but I'm getting so frustrated :(

I know kids don't develop empathy until 6 or 7 but Aibu to think she should have more than she has? DS is a young 4 and he seems to be able to grasp it.

[millyk]

Sorry posted too soon. Look at the Camhs website. You can refer yourself. Expect to jump through hoops. They will want you to do parenting courses. All sorts, but it's a start.

If you can afford to go private for an assessment I think I would. If you make sure you get someone who does NHS work as well they should hopefully accept. If nothing else it will halp you understand your daughter and help your sanity.

As far as school goes they should be doing more. They should be getting her seen by a speech and language therapist and and an educational psychologist. (Difficult in the current climate but they should be referring her at least)

With regards to the Ehcp, you can apply yourself. Don't listen to school. It's not all about academic achievement. The threshold for assessment is very low. I think it's something like they MAY have additional needs and MAY benefit from support. If you do apply they will likely refuse initially but most refusal decisions are overturned when you appeal. The special educational needs board here may be a place to start.

[sweetchildofmime]

@Devonmum2020 I can't solve your problem, but may be able to give you some hope. My DS was also a horror at that age, and is now a lovely 13yo. He does still find social relationships a bit of a minefield, and so I suspect he may be slightly "on the spectrum" but not enough to make a big deal of or seek diagnosis for. From memory, I think he grew out of the most worrying stage around age 6.5.

[VioletCharlotte]

OP. Apologies of this has already been asked and I've missed it,but was she like this before your DS came along? I wonder if maybe she's jealous of him and the relationship you have with him? He's little and needs more looking after, and an easier child, she may perceive this as you loving him more than her? How does she behave with other children when she's at school? Is she kind to others and to animals?

[VioletCharlotte]

Sorry I missed some of the previous posts, I see she is having issues at school too.

[millyk]

Also have a look at the National Autistoc Society websitefor advice about diagnosis. If she doesn't respond to standard parenting techniques I would suggest looking the the pda society website for information too. Good luck. It's such a hard fight.

[BeBraveAndBeKind]

If the school aren't helping you can request an ECHP assessment directly from the local authority. There's a guide and a template letter here: www.autism.org.uk/about/in-education/extra-help-in-school/england/ehc-assessment.aspx.

They're legally obliged to assist under section 36 of the Children and Families Act 2014. Buckle up though because it's a long and challenging process. Another thing that might be worth requesting is a visit from the Teaching Advisory Service. We found them to be the most helpful of anyone when we were going through this process.

[Devonmum2020]

I always feel my younger one gets the rubbish end of the deal. Where he is so much easier he is the one who ends up stuck on a tablet for 90 minutes whilst I deal with a meltdown and he's always the one who has to be removed from the house when she's really kicking off. I know she could be jealous of him but in reality he doesn't get anywhere near the attention from me he needs or deserves because he is so much easier.

She's very nervous of animals so wouldn't get close enough to find out. She has lashed out at other children, has no friends and won't entertain other kids at all at the moment. She was more socially able back in September.

[Devonmum2020]

Am going to look into EHCP today.

[Kitsandkids]

The school sounds awful. And so what if you do get upset? You’re human, not a machine! Having your own child attack you is upsetting! And actually, in lots of schools, parents getting upset is the catalyst for wheels being put in motion a bit more as it’s clear more help is needed. It’s not normally held against parents!

Is moving schools an option? I wouldn’t feel like I could work with that school anymore if they were making unsubstantiated allegations about me.

[Anonymoussumo]

Hi, OP.

I had this with twins. They are in their 20s now.

I was first told that it must be my parenting (from school), until I pointed out that they both had the same environment/food/ exposure, etc

The one who didn't show empathy was diagnosed with ASD from an early age (from GP and then further tests confirmed).

Hang on in there. It is not you!!

[everythingthelighttouches]

I read the part where you said she isn’t far enough behind academically to get the EHCP (according to school, I assume).

I may be wrong and perhaps someone can quickly correct me, but I was told that there are three “boxes” to tick to get an EHCP:
Academic/cognitive, health, social.

If your EHCP application doesn’t “tick” at least two of these boxes, you’ve got no hope of getting the EHCP unless the child is significantly (1 school year) behind in almost every single aspect of the academic/ cognitive part.

Could it be that school are trying to shore up an EHCP application they’re planning on making by getting the “social” box ticked too??

They’re providing 1-2-1 support at the moment because they have a duty to protect the other children, however, I’m certain they will be worried about how to find this long term and would much prefer an EHCPas that gives them more funding.

[hayfeverhellish]

Oh yes, being behind academically isn't necessary to qualify for an EHCP. My son is profoundly gifted and has an EHCP in a specialist school.

OP - I would ask the GP for a referral to community paediatrics to get the ball rolling (make a list of EVERYTHING you are concerned about and is not improving / getting worse and present to the GP). Also self refer to SLT and OT (for sensory issues). I realised that we were waiting for the education services to help guide and evidence our issues but in reality it wasn't until the medical services looked objectively and wrote reports that we could get things going and school could stop blaming us.

[BendingSpoons]

Can you push for a meetingwitj school (virtual if needed) to really discuss cocerns? Can you keep a diary and possibly take videos/photos to give school a fuller picture? There is the ABC approach to behaviour and you could keep notes of any triggers, what the behaviour was and consequences. Also ask school for any suggestions. I don't think parenting is causing this, but if they see you are engaging and doing the 'right' thing, they may recognise this. Some places run behaviour courses for children with challenging behaviour or additional needs. Again, it's not that poor parenting has caused the issue, but that traditional strategies don't work as well. I think there is one programme called Triple P. Obviously areas will vary on what they offer.

[ItsSpittingEverybodyIn]

I am so angry on your behalf at the way the school are treating you, it's bizarre, and I would be really upset and frustrated in your position. I think I'd be seriously looking at changing schools.

[amateursleuth]

@LaurieFairyCake I'm concerned by your post giving unsubstantiated 'wisdom' about the lack of empathy in young children, which you then seem to think is supported by a link to Psychology Today. I think I've seen you post before that you are a healthcare professional, if so, what kind? And do you have any better evidence to offer for the information you stated so confidently?

[Coughsyrupsucks]

My DD has ASD and was like your daughter when she was little. Zero empathy, completely logical and would kick off at the drop of a hat, she didn’t bite but would pinch. School picked it up early and she had lots of interventions.

When she was little, a couple of things that helped was her handprints laminated on the wall and she could go and press as hard on them as she wanted when she was angry and frustrated - stopped the pinching. And a mini trampet where she could bounce and take the physicality out on that as well. Does she get angry and go super stiff and then lose her shit? It helps with that.

[Mittens030869]

I've had this with DD1 (now 11), and the violence started at about that age. She used to be very violent towards DD2 (now 8) and me. She used to bite DD2 regularly, stamp on my feet, hit and kick me and she once went for me with a rounders bat. She also used to trash her room and throw whatever she had to hand in a rage.

She also lacked empathy, she used to deflect by saying that she was hurting as well. Like your DD, she also couldn't work out cause and effect, and just thought of consequences as my DH and me being unkind to her and not caring about her. (Our DDs are adopted, so her behaviour is as a result of Attachment Disorder, though this has never been formally diagnosed.)

As an encouragement, though, she has had therapy and is waiting for more. At first it appeared to make her behaviour escalate, but she really appears to have turned a corner. She does still throw things (she pushed over a box of glass bottles recently), but the violence towards others appears to have passed. She also shows empathy now, I've had long-term COVID-19 symptoms and she gets that. She's also protective towards DD2.

I also have a DNephew (9) who has similar behavioural issues (he isn't adopted) and my DSis and DBIL have had a very difficult time to get help for him. That's where adoption can have its advantages as there is help more readily available, though this does vary widely.

I really encourage you to ask for help. The process takes time so you need to make a start. They really won't judge you, they're there to help. (I was afraid of this, so I know how hard it can be to come forward.)

I'm sorry you're having to cope with this. I remember it was a very lonely place to be.

[Devonmum2020]

Thank you. I've felt like I've been going utterly insane since September time.

[NameChange657]

I would call up her school nurse, she will have transferred from HV to them now, and have a full and frank conversation about your concerns with them. They can do relevant referrals and they will be "new eyes" so to speak with this situation, my school nurse was incredible. Hang in there.

[Catmaiden]

Ds was like this, we had similar experiences with useless school and referals to SS, who were baffled as to why and kept discharging us. Younger DD is neurotypical, no behaviour issues , yet it was our parenting that got the blame.😳🙄 All this changed once DS had a formal diagnosis of ASD.

[ShawshanksRedemption]

@Devonmum2020

I categorically do NOT use physical punishment. It's what the school are suggesting is happening though.

What evidence do they have to suggest this? It would seem utterly bizarre that they suggest this with nothing to back this assertion up.

You have also said that his behaviour has only happened recently that she hadn't displayed this behaviour before:
She was doing well at school and they saw no issues until February time and has deteriorated to the extent they now provide her with a 1 to 1 at all times as she is a risk to staff and children but they are saying it's learnt behaviour from home and that I allow her to control everything and I need to put boundaries in place so that she knows she can't control others. There have been safeguarding referrals made to social care implying she has learnt this from home too but social care have closed each time with no concerns.

So what changed for her that she is reacting this way?

Looking at it from a school POV, they know that your DD was fine, but then started to display violent behaviour towards others, so much so she has to be constantly supervised. That is a huge change and it needs looking at hence the safeguarding referrals. But it still comes back to why they think it's you/home rather than SEN.

[Devonmum2020]

She has always been difficult at home and one with a tendency to meltdown but up until she started school It was largely managed by preventing it getting to that point so things like not launching sudden changes of plan on her or pushing it too much in places I know are an issue etc. I could see when she was starting to get agitated and would intervene at that point so meltdowns were maybe once or twice a month. They also were not as violent.

She started school on something like the 16th September and by the 16th October everything had home had massively declined. Meltdowns were daily before and after school. Violence of an obscene level but of course she was fine in school. There were a few complaints such as her controlling other children and that she had no friends. In February it was almost like she just gave up trying to hold it in at school so she started exploding there too. She also seemed to give uo even trying to fit in socially. So even though I have been nagging school since October, in their minds the issues occurred suddenly and rapidly in February.

The worst she ever gets from me is she gets picked up under her armpits and were she tends to launch herself backwards it's quite a firm hold. School have seen when this has had to happen and even said themselves there was literally no other way to have done it because I've asked a few times what is a safe way to do it when I have no choice but to hold her.

[Devonmum2020]

I think I mean more different to manage than difficult. She's actually quite easy to manage once you know her it's just she has always needed things doing a different way

[Coughsyrupsucks]

Ask her what makes her ‘itchy’ is it sounds pitches of people’s voices, or lights, too much class noise or unexpected movement or even something as simple like how her clothes feel - even clothes labels scratching could set mine up for a bad day.

She’s old enough that she has a clue as to what sets her off. Sit with her and chat, she knows that she’s not like the other kids, talk to her about it.

Oh and get a big bean bag for the throwing backwards thing. Then she knows she can do it somewhere safely and you don’t get hurt either.

[Devonmum2020]

There's no way she could have that depth of conversation with me. I didn't think 5 year old's could