To be worried about 5 year old's empathy?

[Devonmum2020]

DD is 5.5 and I'm being driven crazy by her complete lack of empathy.

She bites her younger brother constantly and when we do the "look what you have done, this hurt DS" all I get back is a blank "well he made me mad".

She attacked me badly on Tuesday and I showed her the marks. Her response " I was itchy"

I have been unwell all weekend, DS has been giving me blankets etc and understanding when I have said mummy can't do x because I'm poorly. DD is just kicking off over everything. When I explain that mummy really isn't feeling well there's literally nothing there. She absolutely does not care and it has been meltdown after meltdown.

I don't know how to get her to get it but I'm getting so frustrated :(

I know kids don't develop empathy until 6 or 7 but Aibu to think she should have more than she has? DS is a young 4 and he seems to be able to grasp it.

I think it's worth investigating. DS was a bitey toddler then hit a phase of doing it when he was 6. He never grew out of "tantrums"/ meltdowns. I went to the GP when he was 7 with a detailed list of all his sensory/ emotional/ developmental/ behavioural quirks.
He now has an ASD diagnosis.

He can be very empathetic to completely external things,but his emotions overide his actions to others and he struggles to appologise when he feels validated in his actions. He does not see how his actions are disproportionate to the trigger.

We get further with a gentle approach than by being "tough". Time out until he's calm enough for discussion. He lashes out because he can't manage his emotions/ frustrations/ anxiety, not because he intends to be naughty or mean- it's an effect, not the motivation. Screen time is something he cares about but it's better to work with smaller increments as it's easier for him to regain some control in a measured way. His behaviours are an instinctive way to claw back a little control when he feels out of control. Age is helping a bit as his self understanding improves and his ability to articulate about himself.

Hi OP. This isn't down to you, like you said, your other child doesn't behave this way. It sounds like your dd is really struggling. What happened in February? It's quite drastic to go to needing a full time 121. Have you taken her to the gp? I'd definitely look into asd in girls (I have 3 daughters with asd) they can present in a really subtle way which can be hard to spot. My advice would be to read as much as you can. Look up masking, the coke bottle effect, sensory issues and pda maybe. Then see if anything fits with your daughter.

*You don't need to worry about empathy until 8.

They don't start to cognitively understand empathy until 6 or 7.

Under 6 they're just mirroring*

That's not true. My four year old would lay and stroke me when I was sick to the guts with period pains.That wasn't mirroring. It made me feel better and she knew it did. She didn't copy it off her Dad. She hadn't experienced it herself. What would she mirror?

I think you have received some good advice on this thread.

I am wondering about things that have happened in her life - for example how close in age her little brother is and how she felt about that? It can be a big disruption for some children.

I also wonder if she is trapped in a cycle of misbehaving and then being punished - what is she like if you spend time 1:1 with her? Love
Bombing can be helpful for many kids.

Just a couple of thoughts.

I'd be concerned by this behaviour too. I have a 5yo girl who's behaviour can be quite wild, biting her sister, lashing out. She struggles with self regulation but completely understands she has done wrong and will show remorse for it. She has said she loses control and feels embarrassed after. I say that to illustrate she has some understanding if her behaviour despite problems with regulating her behaviour.

The itchy comment particularly makes me wander about sensory processing issues and definitely whether there could be underlying asd- often overlooked in girls. Ask Gp/ health visitor if you have a younger child if school are not being supportive.

I beg to differ that they don't understand empathy until aged 8. My 4 year old is very empathetic and shows concern for everyone she knows and those she doesn't.

@TypingError sounds very similar to my youngest, it's just the three of us so there's literally no one he could have mirrored it from.

@Ilovesausages She barely acknowledges her brother, there's 18 months between them. She gets 90 minutes undivided mum time every evening as well as one to one in bursts throughout the day and at weekends during his nap time. No matter how much attention i give her or how much I do with her Its never enough.

@Fluffymulletstyle she definitely doesn't have that level of insight. She doesn't recognise her behaviour as being wrong and I have never seen any sign of remorse form her at all.

Me and my 4 year old daughter watched Pete's dragon yesterday and she sobbed uncontrollably when they were hurting the dragon. That's not mirroring behaviour! They 100% do show empathy way way before 8.

This seems really extreme, but have you considered a different school? You say her behaviour has only really escalated since February, has something happened significantly? At home or school that could have triggered this? The empathy thing, I do think comes later than 5, as it's quite a complex emotion for some people to grasp, some young children mirror people's emotions or work off instruction, so for example if you've said even in passing about mummy needing looking after as she's poorly, your son could have picked up on that rather than him being empathetic.

Be very mindful as well of comparing your children, they will have different personalities and will develop in different areas at different times, they're both at different points in their development so comparing them will only frustrate you unnecessarily. There are also things such as reward charts you could try if you haven't already?

I don't usually compare them, just finding it hard to see how easily he can do it when she can't, makes me feel that perhaps there is something underlying that would explain it. He's fast catching up and even overtaking in most EYFS areas which is becoming hard to ignore when they have both have had the same experiences and treatment and first few years.

Reward charts are an issue, rewards have to be instant and for the behaviour rather than her. She can't handle a chart style system and if I praise her ie "You are such a good girl" she reacts too

I work in early years and have been on lots of training over the years. I was always taught that empathy starts to develop from the age of 4. It's like everything with children's learning and development I imagine, they all learn at different times, in different ways, don't fit neatly into boxes etc. So some children as per pp's probably are showing signs much earlier.

Op, I would also advise chasing this up with a GP appointment. Do you notice many sensory seeking/avoiding behaviours from your dd?

If it is ASD understanding the cause and effect of behaviour and consequences can be very difficult. Have you tried visual clues for her so she understands expectations. They need to be used consistently to work. There is a lovely book called colour coding for autism which has lovely ones to use at home and at school.
Lack of empathy can also be a sign of attachment disorder. Maybe some of her behaviours remind them of children who have had attachment disorder hence the involvement of SS?

She has a few sensory bits, food, clothing, sudden loud noises. Can't sit still.

I know her eye contact is also poor

I have to disagree about the no empathy until 6,7,8 too. When I had morning sickness with DD2, DD age 3 used to rub my back & say ‘it’s ok mummy’ she’s never seen this be done to know how to react! She’s also been empathetic to others that I have witnessed. Maybe they don’t UNDERSTAND empathy, but I truly believe they feel it.

You've said a lot of things that make me think possible ASD, like an extreme reaction to itching. Apparently it's often overlooked in girls but I'm not sure how true that is.

tbf in terms of empathy isnt it around 7 it starts properly? i think at that age its about immediate appropriate consequences.

Our GP couldn't refer as it needs to come from school who won't.

She has a few sensory bits, food, clothing, sudden loud noises. Can't sit still.

I know her eye contact is also poor

This plus the empathy issue reminds me so much of DS at that age (he was diagnosed with ASD & ADHD eventually). Has your GP actually told you they won’t refer unless school do? That seems crazy! Is seeking a private diagnosis an option for you? We went that route in the end due to waiting times (2+ years in our area). It wiped out our savings at the time but was worth it for the peace of mind as we saw an excellent consultant (NHS but with a private clinic too)
and she was the first person who actually seemed to just “get” DS immediately. Either way, from what you describe it sounds worth investigating the possibility of autism (even if it’s just to rule it out). It can be a scary journey but we found the diagnosis a massive relief in the end.

I’m sorry school have been so unsupportive and that you’re going through this - it is so worrying. You sound like a good mum It might be worth trying the SEN boards on here - I’ve found them helpful over the years.

Can't believe school have put in place 121 support without a diagnosis.

I'd talk to them so they know the issue is not down to you. Say how you deal with dd, ask for help. They need to know it's her, not you.

Good luck.

If she can't feel empathy for others, can she feel it for herself?
So if you say 'how would you like it if someone bit you' (say 'someone' not 'your brother'), can she grasp the idea that biting hurts?

My son is 4 and today had bit me 4x times then himself. When ever he sees a insect outside he stomps on it without any emotion he literally laughs. He has a speech problem so only a few words. Its awful. Your not alone

Gp and look into ASD. At that age I would expect empathy or at least mirroring and ability to link an action and consequence.... have school raised any issues in past? Does she have any friends,?

No she has no friends. She won't even entertain being near other children at the moment. School have had to give her 1 to 1 because she is hurting kids and staff as well as repeatedly escaping.

She never responds when I ask her how she would feel if it were her.

Our local peadiatrics bounce back GP referrals so it's futile.

My mother did a genius thing with me to teach me empathy. I would sit on her knee and she would pretend to be a little boy called 'Jamie' and I was the mum.

'Jamie' would say that he wanted to do naughty things like steal or hit someone and I had to explain why it was wrong, as the mum.

I'm sure it did wonders to put myself in other people's shoes.

My 5yr old DD has Autism, yet has shown a lot of empathy since being less than a year old (she heard a baby/toddler suddenly start crying and she made a sad face, sad sound and pointed. Then held her arms out to cuddle him.

Has nothing like this ever happened? Have you hurt yourself or cried around her at all? How does she react?