To be worried about 5 year old's empathy?

[Devonmum2020]

DD is 5.5 and I'm being driven crazy by her complete lack of empathy.

She bites her younger brother constantly and when we do the "look what you have done, this hurt DS" all I get back is a blank "well he made me mad".

She attacked me badly on Tuesday and I showed her the marks. Her response " I was itchy"

I have been unwell all weekend, DS has been giving me blankets etc and understanding when I have said mummy can't do x because I'm poorly. DD is just kicking off over everything. When I explain that mummy really isn't feeling well there's literally nothing there. She absolutely does not care and it has been meltdown after meltdown.

I don't know how to get her to get it but I'm getting so frustrated :(

I know kids don't develop empathy until 6 or 7 but Aibu to think she should have more than she has? DS is a young 4 and he seems to be able to grasp it.

I'd look at moving schools tbh. They are not helping!
Your dd has a lot of 'red flags ' for ASD, possibly PDA but if school are going down the 'blame the parent' route it will be much more difficult to get help and/or a diagnosis.
Also if she doesn't have an EHCP.. start the process.. if school are already supplying her with a 1:1 then they are acknowledging severe difficulties which helps to raise your case. You can apply yourself..it does NOT have to come from school.
I work with children who have autism (and my DS2 is autistic) and I knew long before anyone acknowledged it, because he was developmentally delayed it tool til he was 7 for CAHMS to admit he also has autism.
From what you have said, your daughter has no empathy..or mirroring, or emerging awareness of others feelings. Meltdowns. Aggression, poor eye contact, can't make friends, needs 1:1 at school and is behind in development. Time to push for assessment. Apply for an EHCP, get ready to fight for her.

And move schools. Hers is NOT helping !

Does she ever get upset at sad stories or films?

A child of 5 is old enough to understand that biting hurts others and is bad. I would be getting a doctor apointment.

My 8 year old dd doesn't show any empathy either and I suspect she has ASD. She hates it if I'm poorly and won't help me at all just tells me to stop being a baby !!

Op reading your further replies, your daughter definitely needs to be seen by a peaditrician. I would go to your gp with a list of concerns you have mentioned here and if you are not happy then ask for a second opinion. Ask health visitor also.

School don't sound on your side but if your daughter has 1:1 support they recognise she needs additional support. You could apply for an ECHP yourself. You could also contact you local authority SENDIASS for impartial advice

Where is the school SENCO in all this? Who is funding the 1:1? It perplexes me that school aren’t keen to pursue a diagnosis if they think her issues are that significant. I’m also baffled as to why a GP can’t help you - most referrals here are done through a GP, as our school has a low rate of referral, and parents are pretty switched on. It really sounds like a diagnosis, or working towards one, would be beneficial to everyone. If funds are available you could consider looking for a private consultation, they might be able to give you some advice on how to get her into the NHS system easier at least, or make a diagnosis, but that could be expensive.

To the PP saying that 5yo should know that biting hurts - she does know, but if she’s neurodiverse she may lack the theory of mind needed to connect those two things and to stop her impulse. Biting is communication, and not all ASD kids are able to communicate their needs effectively.

Also school cannot diagnose - they do not have the qualifications, so at the same time, they cannot say that it’s learned behaviour from home. They don’t know what it is. All they can do is refer on. An experienced SENCO might have some idea of what they think is going on, based on having worked with other children, but they cannot make the diagnosis (and learned behaviour from home isn’t a diagnosis anyway - what do they suppose is going on at home?)

Sorry to keep on - I’m just utterly enraged by the school’s failure to help with this.

You need to insist on a meeting with the SENCO and the head of school (and class teacher if possible). And you need to ask them direct questions about their plan to get support, and to support you in getting the EHCP she so badly needs.

I’d also want to view other schools in the area, because from where I’m standing they’ve got this badly wrong at the moment.

Sorry to pile on but I'd support the view if perhaps something extra going on for her. I'll throw in ADHD-i have it & it's wildly under diagnosed in girls/women.
Some similarities in issues w my son who is currently awaiting a neurodevelopmental assessment. The SENCO also referred for OT for my son re sensory issues. (18m waiti list )
Good luck. It's REALLY hard.

And I believe it's not you causing the behaviour

We had issues with our school where they were very clear our DS had developmental issues but seemed to leave it all on us. It was very frustrating.

Turned out they didn’t have the funds to pay for an educational psychologist. Who provides a report to go in the EHCP application.

If you have the money, I strongly recommend you pay a private educational psychologist yourself.

It’s expensive (up to £1000).

It’s the best money I ever spent because:
We know what’s “wrong”
We are about two years ahead in the system
We got an ehcp
There’s loads of advice tailored to our child in there

Most importantly, we’re in power now.

It shut down the school’s guessing and blaming.
The school treat our DS more appropriately
We got through the medical system more easily (although we were already in because our DS was born very prematurely).

@flamingolingo school have essentially funded the 1 to 1 from the lockdown situation and rota-ed on an extra staff member each day for her. The head teacher got cross after she caused a few thousands pounds worth of damage during a meltdown. She has met her new 1 to 1 for next year but I have no idea how it will be funded or how secure the provision will be.

She doesn't get upset at sad bits in film but is very very sensitive to anything remotely scary in them.

I want to go private for assessment but it is a bit mind boggling and then it's getting it accepted by school.

Op the school sound useless!! What does the Senco say re the behaviour?

Look at local community OT and SLT teams and see if you can self refer your dd, explain the sensory issues and the communication issues including the lack of empathy and friends. I could self refer my dd (South West.)

The charity Bibic is useful, they assessed my dd for £200 (their assessment strongly suggested ASD) and that was useful when discussing the issues with the GP, school etc.

The process isn't always straightforward but in my mind it's worthwhile as a diagnosis means my dd will finally get the support she needs.

I would be concerned. Where did you hear children don’t get empathy until 6 or 7?
More like 2 or 3!

It just doesn’t make sense to me - if they get the diagnosis and the EHCP they get money for the 1:1, but instead they are obstructing the process and unhelpfully blaming you. Madness. Good advice re: SLT self referral, our ASD diagnosis came via SLT, so any service you can self refer to is worth a try.

OP I'm an SLT. From what you have said, I would be thinking she possibly needs referrals to SLT and Community Paeds to investigate something like Autism. We know that anxiety is often linked with Autism, and the current situation is impacting on behaviour for some children. It is frustrating referrals have to come from the school. Is that the same for SLT? Can you go down the route of asking school to refer, as if she got a diagnosis it would help them build a case for extra funding via EHCP. Of course she may well not have anything 'diagnosable'. One option would be seeing if you could have a private session with an SLT or paediatrician. It might be enough to convince school to refer.

Apologies if you’ve already said, but who have you had meetings with at the school?

Have you spoken to the SENCo? What has s/he said? Has she been seen by the Educational Psychologist? Schools have to pay for this service so are sometimes a bit resistant but if they’re paying for a 1:1 that is surely more expensive. Have they not mentioned applying for an EHCP for her? I can’t understand how/why they’re funding the 1:1 without going down that route.

The social services referrals sound very bizarre. Are you able to say a bit more about what exactly they’re so concerned about with regard to your parenting that they’ve contacted SS more than once? I think if a school did that to me instead of listening to my concerns about my child, I would change school.

I foster, and even though my foster children have been through trauma, poor parenting etc they didn’t require 1:1 at school at the age of 5. It is really quite unusual unless there is a real reason why the child needs it. In my experience of working in schools it is even more unusual in girls. I have seen a few little boys who were ‘wild’ when they started school due to lack of boundaries at home but (and I realise this is anecdotal) girls are generally better at learning the rules and settling down.

@Flamingolingo it feels like the school are half expecting for everything to magically be fixed over summer once I sort it out at home.

@BendingSpoons in our area yes, unless obviously for home schooled children but peadiatrics refuse them and insist they come from school.

@Kitsandkids I speak to senco the most as it's her who feeds back all incidents to me. We were starting TAC meetings but they are stopped due to covid. They have said academically she isnt far enough behind for an EHCP so her issues aren't impacting enough on her education.

The referrals have essentially said they are concerned I use physical punishment on her and that she mirrors what she sees and experiences. They contact social services everytime her behaviour escalates or displays something new at school so for instance last week She slipped my hand in the car park and ran off so they informed social care that I'm not keeping her safe and that it's yet more worrying behaviour. They also added on the fact they are worried about my MH because I was emotional (not crying just obviously upset by my voice) after she kicked me badly in the stomach strapping her in the car. I know the most recent social worker has said she is going to speak to them this coming week as it's unfair. The school have said she is scared to go home.

Her 1 to 1 is purely to keep staff and other children safe as well as to stop her damaging the school. I know girls usually internalize more than boys do too so I just don't understand how this is all being placed on me.

When my son was diagnosed with autism, I remember that there was a reluctance to attach a label at an early age - five years or younger - because it was said that children can change so much in the early years. It was when the school needed funding for 1:1 support, when he was four years old, that they decided to assign the label, ASD, as a provisional measure - so that the school would be able to secure the ongoing funding. This was the push: needing funding. The diagnosis was firmed up, subsequently.

I would have thought that the school will eventually want to have a referral made in order to secure a firm diagnosis and an EHCP.

There are so many families I know who have one child who has particular difficulties around behaviour and social/communication and another with no difficulties, and it would seem obvious that the family's management of the problem has nothing to do with the behaviours. It is very frustrating, OP. It is just a case of having to be confident and believe in yourself as a parent, and be proud of the time and attention you are giving to your daughter.

I'm so sorry OP. It sounds like your being fobbed off from every angle! Things you can try, I would go back to the GP, I would put all her difficulties down in writing, with examples. Explaining the help she needs in school (so different settings). Read up about sensory processing and document any differences (they can't blame that on your parenting!). I would argue the sudden need for 121 is almost as a regression of behaviour. Ask for her to be seen by a Paediatrician for a neuro developmental assessment. If they refuse off ask for a second opinion. If that doesn't work she should be seen by Camhs for assessment. Anyone can refer her. Gp, school or you can self refer. It is complete nonsense that she has 121 but school won't refer her. If your GP wont help I think I would do it myself. They hav

I didn't see your post about using physical punishment, OP. I really don't think this is a good idea at all, and I think that it is important to try to use the same positive behaviour reinforcement methods that school uses - very important. This will give consistency.

I think keeping things calm, peaceful, non-aggressive is crucial. I would ask the school to help you to make reward charts and use some of their tools. Until you know what is your child's difficulty, I think it is important not to be condemning or being negative. She might have a learning difficulty around cooperative behaviour, and might need more understanding.