To be worried about 5 year old's empathy?

[Devonmum2020]

DD is 5.5 and I'm being driven crazy by her complete lack of empathy.

She bites her younger brother constantly and when we do the "look what you have done, this hurt DS" all I get back is a blank "well he made me mad".

She attacked me badly on Tuesday and I showed her the marks. Her response " I was itchy"

I have been unwell all weekend, DS has been giving me blankets etc and understanding when I have said mummy can't do x because I'm poorly. DD is just kicking off over everything. When I explain that mummy really isn't feeling well there's literally nothing there. She absolutely does not care and it has been meltdown after meltdown.

I don't know how to get her to get it but I'm getting so frustrated :(

I know kids don't develop empathy until 6 or 7 but Aibu to think she should have more than she has? DS is a young 4 and he seems to be able to grasp it.

[iwilltaketwoplease]

@Devonmum2020 I understand it must be very hard to deal with. My point is (I'm assuming she's verbal) she does something wrong , you tell her "you do not bite your brother because it hurts him" then she knows because you've told her does that make sense? But I see now it's more even if you do tell her ten minutes later she will bite again for example so even if you do tell her off she "doesn't care".

My 3yo is the same in that sense, no matter how much I tell him off he just doesn't listen and doesn't learn from his mistakes. Consequences mean nothing to him perhaps it's his age I don't know , I have a 7yo too but never had these challenges.

Your DD is 5 so I agree that she should "behave" by now and develop an understanding. My points when I first started positing were that the only thing I can do is be consistent in discipline in the hope that one day soon it clicks.

Good luck OP, I hope you can get some support for your family soon.

[Devonmum2020]

@iwilltaketwoplease sorry to hear your three year old is struggling. Sounds similar to how mine was at 3!

I think it's really hard to explain how mine just can not link the consequence because unless you live it it's really hard to put into words. She just absolutely can not relate the conscience she is receiving being related to the action. No matter how immediate or consistent, it's like she forgets she even did anything.

[iwilltaketwoplease]

@BeBraveAndBeKind It does seem worrying. That must have been a tough road, I am glad you have reached a diagnosis now and I hope you've got the support that's needed.

I have a 3yo which I have my concerns about too, I have done for a long while now, nursery work closely with an organisation and they also work 1-1 with the children and do development checks every so often which is good. My son is speech delayed, smears poo, violent towards his brother , the list goes on but as nursery has been closed for months now I haven't had a meeting with the workers yet to see if they've picked up on anything. Seems it's a long way for any diagnosis.

It seems the GP is the best route to go down to get referred to a paediatrician or psychologist for an assessment OP, so do go back.

[BeBraveAndBeKind]

@iwilltaketwoplease. Some schools just don't have the expertise to be able to pick these things up. It's worrying that they seem so unhelpful though. My son's infant school was pretty unhelpful in the first few years and I actually had a teacher tell me that there was nothing the matter with him, he was just antisocial. He subsequently was diagnosed with ASD and Dyspraxia. It wasn't until year 5 that there was a decent impetus to get things moving and the Teaching Advisory Service were instrumental in pulling everyone together for a complete picture of what was happening with him.

[iwilltaketwoplease]

@Catmaiden which views ? If someone does something wrong they get punished, one child hurts another you punish them. If that's by taking things away , no sweets, or the naughty step it's a punishment for them.

@BeBraveAndBeKind From what I've read here the school don't think it's anything more which is concerning, do they not have a duty of care especially if the OPs daughter has 1-1 surely they should refer ?

[Osirus]

@LaurieFairyCake

You don't need to worry about empathy until 8.

They don't start to cognitively understand empathy until 6 or 7.

Under 6 they're just mirroring.

This is what I was taught whilst learning psychology. However, I’m convinced my daughter has been able to feel empathy from 3.

I put a kid’s mini film on for her and when I checked on her she had silent tears streaming down her face and when I asked her what was wrong she said “he’s lost his family.”

After that she cried at anything where the character was sad or lonely.

[BeBraveAndBeKind]

@iwilltaketwoplease That might work with a neurotypical child but, from everything @Devonmum2020 has said so far, it's sounding like her daughter may be neuro diverse and you need a different tool kit for those children.

[Catmaiden]

I think it is very clear you have no experience with children with ASC. iwilltaketwoplease

And as for your views on "punishment" words fail me.

[iwilltaketwoplease]

@Catmaiden what child do you know that will happily go and sit on the naughty step? What child likes getting told off? None.

Stick to one form of discipline and stay consistent wether the child likes it or not, wether you have to put them on it 101 times. Just don't give in.

Of course they should feel punished that's the whole point isn't it?

[0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h]

Children can be incredibly different, I wouldn't compare them. One of my children would chortle merrily if someone got hurt. Slap stick comedy as far as he was concerned. But incapable of malice. Another has always been uncannily empathic - but highly manipulative. All are getting nicer and all have worried me.

[googledontknow]

I've no suggestions either, other than you've had some very good advice on this thread about pushing for a diagnosis.
Just wanted to wish you and your family all the best, hopefully you have hit rock bottom and the only way is up.
I hope you and your Dd get the support you need.

[JaffaJaffJaffpussycatpuss]

No suggestions, but you are doing very well, OP.
This is situation is mostly out of your control, and I commend you for searching so hard for answers and doing your very best for your child.
Catmaiden's idea sounds useful.
Lots of love to you xxx

[Catmaiden]

I found that videoing DS behaviour, and showing school, GP, HCP, CAMHS, Sendco, really helped.

Particularly as a timeline of exactly the same behaviour and words, taken over a period of several years. They saw that this was how he reacted, that was what he did in a meltdown, this was the stim behaviour, and that none of it really changed, over many years.

[blosstree]

It definitely sounds like ASD to me. Girls are very often misdiagnosed or not diagnosed til adulthood - I wasn't diagnosed until I was 22.

Do some research specifically on girls and autism, as it often presents differently in girls than it does in boys, which is why it is often overlooked.

If you feel if fits, really push with the doctor. They often dismiss it (they did with me as a 10 year old). Provide evidence etc, visit different ones.

If she does have ASD, a diagnosis makes all the difference in the world, it is vitally important.

[Devonmum2020]

Thank you @Catmaiden. Nothing is working in terms of consequences. No matter how simply explained it is or how consistent it is she just cant link it, it's so frustrating. I know they are different children but I can see how younger one responds to consequences and how he can link it and even how when he knows he's in trouble he will say sorry for ... . DD just sees it all as me being horrible to her and genuinely can not grasp that it's because did this or that.

@LuaDipa obviously I'm speaking for myself but I like to think she knows how loved she is. We do special mummy and DD time every evening. We cuddle all the time. When she is melting down she is asked frequently if she is ready for/needs a cuddle.

We don't have conversations but I don't think she can. She only talks to me to ask for stuff or to scream at me. I've tried and tried but I just don't get a response when I try and initiate. It's just odd.

[Catmaiden]

iwilltaketwoplease

Oh please 🙄 Do you really think the OP hasn't tried that? With I suspect total failure for it to work, and a huge meltdown, instead?

Which bit of "lack of empathy" and "not understanding consequences" didn't you understand?

If the child does have a neurodevelopmental disorder, the usual consequences (time out, naughty step, sticker chart, removal of toys or tech etc) will almost certainly very probably mean nothing, other than to make them feel hard done by/punished at the loss of the privilege.

Because that's the common response with parenting methods designed to work with neurotypical children, when dealing with a child, who is not.

[Catmaiden]

iwilltaketwoplease

[LuaDipa]

This sounds very difficult. Dd definitely needs more support and school have a responsibility to assist with this. But, and you don’t have to answer this, does dd know that you love her? You spend a lot of time managing meltdowns but do you spend any time just sitting with her? Cuddling? Having a conversation about something other than her behaviour? No blame or judgement as dd clearly needs help, but perhaps worth thinking about.

[RealLifeHotWaterBottle]

iwilltaketwoplease Thats a bit myopic. It seems likely there are underlying issues here based on the previous posts and an overall assessment of the different behaviour described.

There's no "surely" about it.

[Honestlyfeelsick]

OP I see you say you're on your own. Does she see her father? What's he like?

[iwilltaketwoplease]

Also just because your son doesn't behave like that it doesn't mean anything tbh because children are different.

[iwilltaketwoplease]

Perhaps it's attention seeking behaviour and lack of consequences. Surely if you actually put her on the naughty step or took away the device and screams why can't she have it , you simply reply with "because you hurt your brother and that's not nice behaviour", then she will know won't she?

[Devonmum2020]

Have been asking about other local schools on the local SEN and the general consensus is none of them give the impression of being any better :(

I'm surprised she's not been excluded yet. She caused a huge amount of damage and is hurting staff.

[BurtsBeesKnees]

Try and speak directly to the senco at school, and contact family services via your local authority.

My dd ended up getting excluded twice, first was a 2 day and then a fixed term, from school (she was 7 at the time), before I got anywhere. It was actually after I moved her schools and the second school was so much mite engaged and helpful. They pushed the paediatrician and gp appointments for me.

She's since been diagnosed with adhd and we have the ehcp which funds her to attend a special school for children with her behavioural issues.

If I'd kept her at her original school I'd never have got anywhere.