It isn't white privilege

[L777]

AIBU to think white privilege should be BAME disprivilege?
I think the majority of the time, white people are treated as everyone should be treated, and BAME are treated badly. So white aren't privileged, BAME are disprivileged?
I of course think everyone race/demographic should be treated equally. This should be achieved by treating BAME better, not white worse? If it was white privilege, we would have to treat white people worse for everything to be as it should... for example, I don't think people get job offers because they're white. I think black people dont get job offers because they're black.

I know this isn't very significant or going to change the world, just thinking out loud

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/08/the-term-privilege-has-been-weaponized-its-time-to-retire-it

Personally, I think if someone feels that the word privilege is being used as a weapon, they personally feel attacked, and therefore they are missing the point. Its impossible to open up to a conversation when you think you need to defend yourself.

But just because one person thinks something, doesn't mean its correct or even relevant. The term privilege isn't a weapon. It's a tool. Used well, it can help effect change.

Most people in real life don't even know what 'BAME' is. White privilege? Everyone understands that, it's not an acronym that needs spelling out and explaining all the time. "BAME disprivilege" is a mouthful and hard to say. It does not flow well at all. It sounds like a nonsensical term to be honest.

@PlanDeRaccordement I went off to bed last night rather than continue investing in your discussions. You throw enormous amounts of energy into attempting to disprove white privilege exists. If only that energy could be used to actually support BLM. In any case you are focussing in university applications rather than what really matters which is retention and progression - in other words life chances. That's right. Black students are less likely to complete a university degree, and less likely to achieve an upper degree than their white counterparts even when controlled for prior qualifications. Don't try to argue on something you know nothing about. This is my field and there's an inordinate amount of research proving Black students are disadvantaged only on the basis of their skin colour, both whilst at university and in the graduate workplace where they are less likely to be employed.

Besides which, white privilege is embedded in much more than simply higher education - it is across all areas and aspects of our society. So your attempts to zoom in on one small area and think you can dismantle reams of academic and public sector research in the hope that white people don't actually have to take any responsibility to right the wrongs of inequality speaks volumes about your mindset. You are a massive part of the problem.

@CheddarCheesey Very well said. There’s also the tiny matter of black students are more likely to go to lower ranked universities when they do access higher education. There are some universities that have such poor ethnic diversity and an unwelcome atmosphere towards black students that would be candidates are scared of applying - Exeter i’m Looking at you!

CheddarCheesey

So what is happening to the black students once at university then that causes them to perform less well, or to drop out? Education up until that point has worked - they achieved the grades needed, they completed the application process and were accepted, so whatever is going wrong is going wrong at uni. So can that be identified so that it can be removed?

Wrong thread sorry. Watching this one too.

so whatever is going wrong is going wrong at uni. So can that be identified so that it can be removed?

Can you make room for the possibility that something that was present during childhood might need to be added instead?

IMO, it's far more likely that support structures were consciously put in place in school to help counter some of the detrimental effects of racial oppression that typically lead to underachievement. Plus many successful university applicants will have a parent, carer, teacher or mentor rooting for them during school to counter some of the negative messaging they receive from elsewhere. When those support structures are removed, it becomes evident that the odds are stacked against black students because the structural racism that has always acted on them still exists.

It's not as simple as 'removing the racism' in specific scenarios.

LonginesPrime

Ok. So less white working class children go to university - so what needs to be in place to support those children?

More black students go to university but then drop out - you're suggesting that it's the help they received in school being withdrawn that is the cause of this, so that needs to be addressed too, although if that is the case it's likely that wwc, should they get additional support at school, will then need it to be extended to university too otherwise presumably the same will happen?

Ok. I understand that "white privilege" is the absence of definition due to the colour of your skin but i think it's the word privilege that is causing confusion. A person who has supposed "white privilege" but is living, for example in extreme poverty isn't going to feel in any way privileged. It needs a different word to privilege because privilege implies more opportunities, wealth, more education, better housing and for many, many white -and black- people that just won't be the case so I understand what the op is trying to say.

less white working class children go to university - so what needs to be in place to support those children?

Did you mean to ask me what actual support they need, or did you mean to ask me if I think support might be needed? I suspect you're probably right that white working class children/boys need additional support to close this gap. It's possible to acknowledge white privilege without wishing ill toward white people.

But whataboutery merely takes energy and attention away from the issue at hand (being BAME oppression in this instance), as I'm sure you're aware.

@LonginesPrime

less white working class children go to university - so what needs to be in place to support those children?

Did you mean to ask me what actual support they need, or did you mean to ask me if I think support might be needed? I suspect you're probably right that white working class children/boys need additional support to close this gap. It's possible to acknowledge white privilege without wishing ill toward white people.

But whataboutery merely takes energy and attention away from the issue at hand (being BAME oppression in this instance), as I'm sure you're aware.

Is it really whataboutery to point out that in many situations other groups are actually suffering from greater disadvantage than black people?

Is it really whataboutery to point out that in many situations other groups are actually suffering from greater disadvantage than black people?

Yes. Yes it is.

An equivalent example without race as a factor would be - if someone started a campaign specifically to help prevent the high numbers of ex military men who become homeless after their service and someone said "well its more dangerous to be a woman who is homeless" that would be whataboutery.

Because it's an attempt to use the example of another vulnerable group to invalidate the efforts being made to help the vulnerable group originally mentioned.

That's what whataboutery is.

That was to @Hearhoovesthinkzebras obviously, sorry forgot to tag.

@backseatcookers

Is it really whataboutery to point out that in many situations other groups are actually suffering from greater disadvantage than black people?

Yes. Yes it is.

An equivalent example without race as a factor would be - if someone started a campaign specifically to help prevent the high numbers of ex military men who become homeless after their service and someone said "well its more dangerous to be a woman who is homeless" that would be whataboutery.

Because it's an attempt to use the example of another vulnerable group to invalidate the efforts being made to help the vulnerable group originally mentioned.

That's what whataboutery is.

But that isn't what I'm doing. The exams you're giving is how to prevent ex military personnel becoming homeless.

In this case people are saying that white people have white privilege which puts them at an advantage over black people - why is it wrong to ask about intersectionality? That is nothing like the question you posted about ex military and homelessness.

To use your example, if you said people who haven't been in the military have an advantage over ex military personnel that would be similar to the discussion over white privilege.

People are making a claim - white privilege exists - why is it forbidden for people to ask if it's true, or if it's intersectionality, or indeed another form of privilege? Is everyone just expected to accept claims now without discussion?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

If you genuinely don't believe that in almost all cases, if all else is equal, a black person has the same opportunities and the same risk of discrimination as a white person then you're either being wilfully disingenuous or just utterly determined to defend something nobody is asking you to defend.

Nobody is saying all white people are bad and they should lose anything. They're saying that they want Black people to have the same opportunities.

I'm disabled, I've had a difficult hand in life. If I was disabled and black then my opportunities would be further limited.

You seem so, so defensive as if there is a personal attack on you. This isn't personal. Systemic racism exists. That is what the BLM movement is about. It's not about white people who are disadvantaged in other ways.

That's not to say people shouldn't help them or that their struggles don't matter. But white people's struggles are not to focus of the BLM campaign.

I can't understand your position on this, it's baffling to me. The effort you are putting into minimising a minority's struggle through semantics and whataboutery is staggering.

And it is whataboutery, we see you doing it. Clearly. Agree to disagree I guess.

Typo! Meant to say DO not don't there:

If you genuinely DO believe that in almost all cases, if all else is equal, a black person has the same opportunities and the same risk of discrimination as a white person then you're either being wilfully disingenuous or just utterly determined to defend something nobody is asking you to defend.

[quote backseatcookers]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

If you genuinely don't believe that in almost all cases, if all else is equal, a black person has the same opportunities and the same risk of discrimination as a white person then you're either being wilfully disingenuous or just utterly determined to defend something nobody is asking you to defend.

Nobody is saying all white people are bad and they should lose anything. They're saying that they want Black people to have the same opportunities.

I'm disabled, I've had a difficult hand in life. If I was disabled and black then my opportunities would be further limited.

You seem so, so defensive as if there is a personal attack on you. This isn't personal. Systemic racism exists. That is what the BLM movement is about. It's not about white people who are disadvantaged in other ways.

That's not to say people shouldn't help them or that their struggles don't matter. But white people's struggles are not to focus of the BLM campaign.

I can't understand your position on this, it's baffling to me. The effort you are putting into minimising a minority's struggle through semantics and whataboutery is staggering.

And it is whataboutery, we see you doing it. Clearly. Agree to disagree I guess.[/quote]
Because I am not seeing anywhere where the term "white privilege" is being used to describe cases where everything else is equal, apart from race.

What I'm hearing is the term "white privilege" applied across the board and hearing that it's up to white people to eradicate it.

I've heard people say that white privilege applied to education, yet the most underperforming groups in education are Roma and traveller students and white working class boys - so where does white privilege come into education?

White working class students are far less likely to attend university than black students.

If white privilege only applies to.people where everything else is equal than as a white, working class disabled female surely I am only responsible for how my privilege affects black working class disabled females because pretty much every other group, whether they are black or white, are going to have more privilege than me?

So yes, I do kind of feel attacked because I think out of all sections of society, disabled people are probably the most disadvantaged yet I don't see any other groups examining how their privilege as non disabled people, disadvantages disabled people.

Grouping all white people together regardless of race, religion, sex or disability and claiming that they have privilege does not seem at all sensible or reasonable to me.

I am also white, disabled and from a working class family.

I can't connect with your opinion that somehow that means you are being asked to do something awful by acknowledging that yes someone in your (our) exact situation is going to be disadvantaged even more than you (us).

Because it isn't about you. It isn't about us. It is about all of us calling on those who hold positions of influence, from politicians to business people to tastemakers, to consider the impact of systemic racism and change their behaviour - to reduce the systemic racism that does exist.

I know what it's like having a rough hand in life, believe me. But sometimes you have to step outside of yourself and realise that it just isn't about you as an individual. You shouldn't feel attacked by BLM.

Grouping all white people together regardless of race, religion, sex or disability and claiming that they have privilege does not seem at all sensible or reasonable to me.

That's not what 'if all else is equal' means though is it? It's not about lumping people together. It's saying that if two people are disabled, if two people are a certain religion, if two people are the same gender but one is white and one is black, the one who is black is statistically more likely to be at a disadvantage in comparison to their white peer.

Like I said you seem so determined to reject that idea so I don't know if there's any getting through to you. I'm sorry you've been dealt a tough hand too, it's unfair and I agree we have disadvantages too. But I don't want my disadvantages to be weaponised against a movement that isn't about me.

People are making a claim - white privilege exists - why is it forbidden for people to ask if it's true, or if it's intersectionality, or indeed another form of privilege?

Hearhooves, intersectionality is a way to recognise and acknowledge the multiple strands of oppression that disadvantage a certain person or group.

It's not intended to be used as a tool to draw a Venn diagram of oppression and then boot out the people either side of the crossover, nor as a stick to beat oppressed people with.

That's not what 'if all else is equal' means though is it? It's not about lumping people together. It's saying that if two people are disabled, if two people are a certain religion, if two people are the same gender but one is white and one is black, the one who is black is statistically more likely to be at a disadvantage in comparison to their white peer.

But literally the only place that I have heard this mentioned is here, on MN.

Everywhere else people are talking about only "white privilege" and applying it to all white people.

Even on here I've seen claims that if a white student and a black student applied to Oxbridge then the black student would be at a disadvantage due to lacking other experiences, family support etc - so that isn't comparing two equal students with only race as the difference is it? Two working class students will likely have all of the same social disadvantages. In that case they clearly were comparing a white middle class student and a black working class student. Which is what you are saying isn't how this works.

So, yes, if we are comparing like with like then I agree but that isn't how I'm seeing it being discussed either on here or irl.

So, yes, if we are comparing like with like then I agree but that isn't how I'm seeing it being discussed either on here or irl.

I'm glad you can acknowledge that. Maybe it's who you're talking to / listening to as I've had some genuinely fascinating conversations with people about this.

I think the crux of it is that you think that white privilege is shorthand for 'every white person is to blame for the way Black people are treated' but that isn't the case.

It's shorthand for 'if white people acknowledged the disadvantage that Black people have when all else is equal in society, it would help redress that balance.'

We are disadvantaged as disabled people. I don't think able bodied people are 'to blame' for that. I DO think that if able bodied people were better educated about the struggles you and I have, were challenged to make workplaces more accessible, were held to account for casual jokes about disability etc - then that disadvantage could start to be chipped away at.

That isn't saying able bodied people are baddies and they need to fix how hard life is for us. It's saying hey, we are struggling and we want to tell you how that feels and how you can help be part of making it less shit for us!

I can't get my head around the defensiveness of something that people aren't 'blaming' you for.

Not all men are arseholes, but many men say they've never seen anyone be sexist at work. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not saying for example that my ex PC retired dad is responsible as an individual for stopping sexism. I do, however, expect him to listen to women's experiences of it and support their fight against sexism wholeheartedly. Because he's a decent man and can listen to other people's suffering without feeling personally attacked and saying (which is true!) that he's from a very poor background so he's had it rough too.

Ex PC as in police, not politically correct. He is the former not the latter!

I think the crux of it is that you think that white privilege is shorthand for 'every white person is to blame for the way Black people are treated' but that isn't the case.

That has literally been said on multiple threads on here and in many discussions that I've seen on line.

I can't get my head around the defensiveness of something that people aren't 'blaming' you for.

Again, that has absolutely been said. Many times I've seen "you've oppressed us for 400 years" - if that isn't blaming then I don't know what is?

As for expecting able bodied people to remove discrimination against disabled people, why not? White people are being told to remove systemic racism so why shouldn't able bodied people have to remove systemic ableism?