It isn't white privilege

[L777]

AIBU to think white privilege should be BAME disprivilege?
I think the majority of the time, white people are treated as everyone should be treated, and BAME are treated badly. So white aren't privileged, BAME are disprivileged?
I of course think everyone race/demographic should be treated equally. This should be achieved by treating BAME better, not white worse? If it was white privilege, we would have to treat white people worse for everything to be as it should... for example, I don't think people get job offers because they're white. I think black people dont get job offers because they're black.

I know this isn't very significant or going to change the world, just thinking out loud

I sort of get where you're coming from - you dont call it sex favouritism you call it sex discrimination. I also suppose that to some extent having a white but "foreign" name might have similar implications when applied to jobs etc .

But something about changing it makes me feel uncomfortable in a victim blaming sort of way. And in the scheme of things it's very much semantics isnt it? We dont need to argue about the name of something when it's the something itself that the huge problem.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras You have it all wrong and your examples all flawed. It's about black people being treated fairly and being given equal advantage same as white people. It's about stopping discrimination and giving white people an unfair advantage.Of course, in practice this might seem like oppression to white people, because they are not used to the new status quo. Everything else then falls into place.

if the group who underperforms most are white working class boys?

Even that seemingly straightforward fact throws up problems Hearshooves because...

Young people from black and Asian Muslims communities are more likely to be unemployed and face social immobility later in life than working class white boys despite doing better at school, according to new research by the Social Mobility Commission.

www.gov.uk/government/news/asian-muslims-and-black-people-do-better-in-school-worse-in-work

eradicate inequalities then wouldn't either lessons to improve English or free and readily available interpreters in all situations be a way to address this?

Absolutely as they are in other countries like Canada, or in other parts of Europe. A friend who moved to France had access to heavily subsidised language courses for example.

No @OhTheRoses I was making a more general point, obviously with that specific example you have given there are other factors at play.

I could easily have said job interview- my point was that for equality white people will necesarily need to be treated less well. That it is not possible for everyone to be treated as white people are, as was suggested in the OP.

I was expanding upon the ubiquitous "When you are used to privalage, equality feels like oppression".

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

There’s a language barrier what can a RGN do?

But isn't that a huge inequality? Surely, not being able to communicate must be one of the biggest disadvantages going so if the intention is to eradicate inequalities then wouldn't either lessons to improve English or free and readily available interpreters in all situations be a way to address this?

Mind your business do not worry about foreign people. Like I said they have relatives and some go home after a few hours.

I’ve looked after many people who have POOR English and you know what? It’s not always easy but we get by and they didn’t die!
You don’t know what you are talking about. There’s resources out in place like google translate it’s not an issue as such in hospital.

Obviously in their own personal life it may be that’s not my business though.

Also some people are from worn torn Countries, they have been raped and so on its complex I don’t judge them though.

”Before you judge make sure your own hands are clean”

@YounghillKang

eradicate inequalities then wouldn't either lessons to improve English or free and readily available interpreters in all situations be a way to address this?

Absolutely as they are in other countries like Canada, or in other parts of Europe. A friend who moved to France had access to heavily subsidised language courses for example.

That falls on the government write to your local MP. Maybe they don’t want to like the mothers that claim benefits and have child after child... and they are British born.

Young hill
I’ve read that report and what they did was compare white working class men versus black and Asian Muslim women. It’s the gender gap reframed.
“Poor white boys do worse in schools but black and Asian Muslim young people, girls especially, do worse for jobs.”
“But it is disadvantaged young people from white British backgrounds who are the least likely to access higher education, with only 1 in 10 of the poorest attending university, compared to 3 in 10 for black Caribbean children, 5 in 10 for Bangladeshis and nearly 7 in 10 amongst lowest income Chinese students.

Despite this, ethnic minority groups experience higher unemployment rates compared to White British groups. The research uncovers a broken social mobility promise for Asian Muslims, particularly women.”

“Almost half of Bangladeshi and over a third of Pakistani young people from the poorest quintile go to university. However, this is not reflected in labour market outcomes, particularly for women, where researchers find that British Bangladeshi and Pakistani women earn less than their counterparts from other ethnic minority groups.”

Its a men versus men+women comparison with the gender gap pulling down the average.

Same difference.

I have 3 children. My first child is a bright and able boy. I thought I lived somewhere that the schools and healthcare were great.

I had no fucking idea.

My second child has ADHD. Accessing CAMHS/Paeds has been a nightmare. In fact we’ve given up and spent £3000 and counting on private assessment, treatment and follow up. School is terrible. The HT who thinks my first born is great, clearly has no time for my second and isn’t interested in any adaptations for his disability. I worry every day about his quality of life, his mental health (from hearing nothing but constant criticism and negative attitudes from adults he respects) and his future.

Before we ran into these issues with child2, I genuinely thought the HT and school were great and we had nothing to worry about what the NHS was providing.

What I didn’t know was that I was in the privileged position of being the parent of an able child, the child that society is set up for. It was an unconscious privilege -I had no idea, I actually thought I was in a position to judge. Hah! I bet I would even have told the parent of a SEN child how good the school was, and imagined it was their issue if it wasn’t working out for them.

Experience has taught me that being free of these disadvantages is a privilege, albeit an unconscious one.

But I don’t know what the answer is in making people aware of their privileges, particularly white privilege. Because when you are the privileged individual, you do think that the world works for everyone the way it works for you. When it comes to race people aren’t going to switch position as I did, and see the other side. Education, education, education...but maybe rewording is needed as many people recoil at the idea of being privileged and just stop listening.

@YounghillKang 100% agree. I see this line trotted out constantly on MN, "Poor white working-class boys". What they are not doing is thinking, "what race are the people in the most senior positions in the UK across all sectors? White, who are the most academically successful? it's not black kids, those with the highest employment rate -White.

[quote RosesandAnts]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras You have it all wrong and your examples all flawed. It's about black people being treated fairly and being given equal advantage same as white people. It's about stopping discrimination and giving white people an unfair advantage.Of course, in practice this might seem like oppression to white people, because they are not used to the new status quo. Everything else then falls into place.[/quote]
Can you explain how I have it wrong?

All things being equal then I understand the argument. I can even understand the argument for positive discrimination but how often does that occur?

Using the job example - all parties would have to have all of the same protected characteristics in order to positively discriminate for race or are you saying that race should take precedence over say, being disabled? Or in many cases race should take precedence over being female?

All of the explanations I've seen compare like with like so a black man compared to a white man, a white disabled person compared to a black disabled person but how do you think it should work when there aren't these similarities?

"White people" aren't an homogeneous group. Within "white people" will be people who are also facing discrimination particularly if they are disabled, or in some instances poor or female.

I noticed university applications were mentioned. I can't believe that being working class, from a disadvantaged background opens many doors for you to Oxbridge even if you happen to be white so should white working class students be overlooked in favour of black students, or should all under represented groups be looked at in an attempt to make society more equal and fairer for everyone?

I dearly feel for Bame if they feel wronged by the system

George floyds murder was despicable

Your white privalege post is deeply racist and offensive

Not all white people are racist the majority of white people have welcomed diversity into our hearts with proud passion

Im am saddened to read of your dislike of white people and having the passion fuelled by hate to create your checklist

We love you can you please join the rest of us in celebrating our differences rather then hating our differences

@TinyPigeon white students are selected over BAME students for uni places. Making a scenario and simplifying:
5 students apply for one place, 4 white and 1 black.

(IN MY OPINION)
The racist selector doesn't think 'I'll choose one of the white ones'
He thinks 'I won't chose the black one'

the selector could follow this process either consciously or subconsciously from a biased society, upbringing etc.

This is why I think BAME are being discriminated against and white are not privileged.

I fully accept that both processes lead to the same outcome of a white person getting the place. However, it isn't that the white privilege needs to stop. It's that BAME discrimination needs to stop which will then automatically take away white privilege.

TinyPigeon in my field, in London, high employment (before Covid at least) I just want staff who can write well, add up, be friendly and reliable. Those skills seem so scarce nowadays I'd hire jumping green frog if he or she could work out 36% of 2500 and not get their theres and theirs mixed up. I'm quite sure I may have disappointed black candidates who have done a fab interview and failed the competency based in-tray test but I've turned down as many if not more white candidates. All with degrees. Something has gone badly wrong with instilling foundation skills across society. What's really disappointing is that the Aussies and New Zealanders can do it as can the privately educated Brits. I don't think it's all about colour.

@OhTheRoses your posts are all crashingly tone deaf! The fact that you feel uncomfortable reprimanding your Black employee for unprofessionalism compared to your white employee is your problem, rooted in your own white fragility.

Also you need to educate yourself about the statistics surrounding retention and progression of BAME students at Higher Education.

Sweetlikecoca

I beg your pardon?

Mind my business? You appear to be arguing for people to be kept oppressed - why do you think it's ok to rely on relatives to translate in a medical setting? What about patient confidentiality? What about safeguarding? What about autonomy? How do you know a relative is translating properly, or isn't misrepresenting either you or the patient? How could an abused woman disclose abuse if she's relying on her husband to translate?

I would have thought a fundamental barrier to equality is an inability to speak English, in England but clearly I'm mistaken.

I've said this in other threads, except that my alternative is "black disadvantage."

In a country where the vast majority are white, it makes no sense to talk about "white privilege", as privilege implies unusual advantage. You can't be unusual if you're in the majority.

"White privilege" exists (or existed) in South Africa and Zimbabwe. In the UK and USA it should be "black disadvantage", or some similar expression.

[quote L777]@TinyPigeon white students are selected over BAME students for uni places. Making a scenario and simplifying:
5 students apply for one place, 4 white and 1 black.

(IN MY OPINION)
The racist selector doesn't think 'I'll choose one of the white ones'
He thinks 'I won't chose the black one'

the selector could follow this process either consciously or subconsciously from a biased society, upbringing etc.

This is why I think BAME are being discriminated against and white are not privileged.

I fully accept that both processes lead to the same outcome of a white person getting the place. However, it isn't that the white privilege needs to stop. It's that BAME discrimination needs to stop which will then automatically take away white privilege. [/quote]
But OP,
There is no evidence for your scenario when the actual facts are as follows:
Only 1 in 10 British white students get into university compared to 3 in 10 British black students. So this means that

If we have 4 university places and 10 white students and 10 black students apply, 3 places will go to black students and 1 token place to the white student.

I didn't say I felt uncomfortable for doing it cheddarCheesey I said when I did reprimand I was accused of racism. Simply trying to understand and observe and I'm sorry if offence was taken because it certainly wasn't intended.

@RandomLondoner you seem to be one of few people that understands. We're the major majority and we're treated as everyone should be. The minority are treated badly. It's BAME discrimination, not white privilege

@L777 The racist selector doesn't think 'I'll choose one of the white ones 'He thinks 'I won't chose the black one'

This is why I think BAME are being discriminated against and white are not privileged.

With all due respect you need to think a bit further into this one. You haven't done enough reading in this to justify starting this thread. Your view is incredibly simplistic and totally overlooks all manner of social issues including unconscious bias (which includes towards privileging others as well as acting against others) and social capital.

Look up Bourdieu's habitus and social capital for example. White students (in this Oxford interview example) are privileged by a whole host of unwritten unspoken rules, networks, norms, and shared understandings which are legitimised and reinforced by the ruling hegemony / dominant group (in this case the largely white university professors / chancellors)- thus the white people are benefitting from this system.

@RandomLondoner someone on here said BAME discrimination which is right I think. That's the phrase I'll now be using

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras Honestly you are not listening. You are reading but not assimilating anything. You keep asking about positive discrimination, I did not mention positive discrimination anywhere (HRM is not my field) every solution to removing discrimination isn't about positive discrimination. However, positive discrimination does not mean hiring unqualified people not does it mean disregarding recruitment numbers. So ask yourself, how do they currently select between able-bodied white people and a disabled white people if both groups are applying for the same job?
Personally, I will be happy if my CV can get as much attention as my white counterparts who is similarly qualified and not have my application thrown in the rubbish pile just because I have a foreign name. See..no white disabled people need be affected! no positive discrimination, just fairness infact.