It isn't white privilege

[L777]

AIBU to think white privilege should be BAME disprivilege?
I think the majority of the time, white people are treated as everyone should be treated, and BAME are treated badly. So white aren't privileged, BAME are disprivileged?
I of course think everyone race/demographic should be treated equally. This should be achieved by treating BAME better, not white worse? If it was white privilege, we would have to treat white people worse for everything to be as it should... for example, I don't think people get job offers because they're white. I think black people dont get job offers because they're black.

I know this isn't very significant or going to change the world, just thinking out loud

@GrumpyHoonMain

White privlege means the whole system is designed to benefit you as a white person over people of colour. That system has to be totally and utterly destroyed for true equality to take place - that may mean that white people would have to feel some pain in the interim. That may mean not only assigning race quotas for some job roles / education courses; but applying maximum white person quotas.

Here we are. This is the post suggesting race quotas.

kazzer

Glad you personally found it useful.

It's just one of the fields of psychology currently being dismantled, at a statistical level, by the replication crisis.

My personal opinion is that an intervention you require in any workplace should be evidence-based, as in, there are predictable and significant improvements in anti-racism at all workplaces in which implicit bias training is carried out. And unfortunately, there aren't.

Doesn't mean that some individuals won't find it useful.

L777

@TinyPigeon white students are selected over BAME students for uni places. Making a scenario and simplifying:
5 students apply for one place, 4 white and 1 black.

(IN MY OPINION)
The racist selector doesn't think 'I'll choose one of the white ones'
He thinks 'I won't chose the black one'

the selector could follow this process either consciously or subconsciously from a biased society, upbringing etc.

This is why I think BAME are being discriminated against and white are not privileged.

I fully accept that both processes lead to the same outcome of a white person getting the place. However, it isn't that the white privilege needs to stop. It's that BAME discrimination needs to stop which will then automatically take away white privilege.

I’d love to hear more on this and also a link to your source.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I asked you to answer your own question because you repeatedly asked me about how positive discrimination should work. I never suggested it in the first place.You've obviously mixed me up with another poster.

Ok. So it's for government to solve then. Thanks for answering.
Yes, that is their job, they are the policymakers and should reflect on how we have arrived where we are and suggest ways to restructure. I'd imagine that would involve engaging various groups. Surely you weren't expecting randomers on the internet to tell you how employment should be restructured, disability discrimination tackled v anti racial discriminations, Education attainment increased .

Someone in another thread earlier today raised the important point that making the least progress is different to being the most disadvantaged.

A poor group of working white boys in a deprived northern town is still slightly less disadvantaged overall in life than a poor group of working black boys in the same northern town due to a hairline advantage with regards to their race yet they are underperforming in education compared to these black boys so there has to be a non-racial reason for this underperformance. Culture? Values? Apathy? Is education and inspiration becoming more valued in the black community as they are in other ethnic minority groups (E.g. Indian and Chinese children outperform almost any other racial group)

Or are black poor boys given more support/encouragement/access programs/opportunities (in which case these white boys would be the ones actually experiencing a race disadvantage as they don’t have access to these opportunities on account of their race)

I genuinely don’t know. It’s nice hearing people’s thoughts and experiences on the matter!

@Melia100

What I don't understand is that intersectionality is supposed to be good, right up to the point it intersects with...what?

I mean, it's pretty clear that sex and class intersect with race. I'm aware that the way a black woman experiences sexism can be compounded by racism, for example. But apparently it's taboo to discuss the way that class, or ability intersects with whiteness?

That makes no sense to me.

Unless we go back to a very clear and limited understanding of intersectionality, which is as a concept to explain the oppression of poor black women specifically, and those who consider themselves progressive stop using the concept everywhere else it suits them and nowhere it doesn't. I'm equally happy with it remaining a way to discuss the discrete experience of being black, female and poor.

But it's one or the other. Either it's a moral lens through which we view all human interaction, or it's specific to one particular community for whom it was conceptualised.

Really interesting points and well worded. food for thought!

But people aren't calling for white people to be treated the same as BAME people currently are.

People are calling for BAME people to be treated the same way white people are.

People aren't calling for white people to 'lose' their privilege.

People are calling for BAME people to have the same opportunities that white people's privilege currently grants them.

It's a subtle but important difference.

Of course disabled people (like me!) are at a disadvantage compared to able bodied people. But if they are disabled and BAME, they are at a greater disadvantage than someone disabled and white (like me). Doesn't mean my life is easy, just means it would be even harder if I was BAME.

Disabled men are still I would assume on average paid more than disabled women due to the gender pay gap. Because people aren't just defined by one characteristic. Those men are still at a disadvantage compared to able bodied people, but have male privilege compared to female peers.

The point is that when all things are equal, being white does in general provide privileges compared to being BAME.

I think it's kind of just another term, the opposite of which would be discrimination. So it doesn't really matter how you word it IYSWIM.

But apparently it's taboo to discuss the way that class, or ability intersects with whiteness?

Melia- that's not been my experience. I am white, but:-

" as an LGBT woman with a disability living in poverty "

I've found wins me some points with lefties.

I agree that we need to raise standards for how we treat people of colour, rather than decreasing them for white people. And by that I don't mean that we should all live like privileged westerners by driving and flying etc, because that in itself worsens inequality due to environmental and health impacts. I just mean everyone should be treated equally/fairly. I therefore understand why the phrasing "white privilege" might seem counter-intuitive.

But this article might interest you: www.in-mind.org/blog/post/inequality-minority-disadvantage-or-white-privilege-and-why-it-matters

I've found wins me some points with lefties

Haha, yes!

I suppose I meant more in discussions like this, which are around race, but in which all intersections of racial privilege with other forms of oppression, like class or sex or ability, are verboten.

I really am fine either way; as a lens to examine all human interactions, or as lens to understand the experience of black women in poverty, but it seems odd to me to claim its universality at times, and reject it at others.

This is why I think BAME are being discriminated against and white are not privileged.

The white privilege would be: "having the privilege of not being discriminated against due to the colour of your skin."

So if this is true how are the figures presented up thread correct? If black students arent applying or getting the necessary grades how come they outnumber white students? It would suggest that they are applying and are getting the grades and actually it's the white students who are disadvantaged, wouldn't it?

Oh, hello, Hearhooves, you found us.

I don't know if the figures presented upthread are correct. I didn't post them and I'm not sure where they're from.

If they're from that government social mobility report that was linked to upthread, that report says that black children "are the ethnic group most likely to fail their Maths GCSE, most likely to be excluded from school and one of the least likely groups to achieve a good degree at university", though. (page 3)

Look, one can cut statistics and quote reports to support almost any argument - if you're trying to say that structural racism doesn't oppress black people then that's up to you.

Continuing to use the term 'privilege' doesn't matter at all, if you have no desire to persuade those not already on board. And that's fine. Nobody said it's the job of black people to persuade white people.

But if you do happen to feel that persuading those 'outside the choir' might be one way of reaching the goal of racial equality, then it's a term that doesn't work very well.

Any time you have to practically run a workshop to explain use of the term to your focus group, before using the term in common, is an indication that the term is not as effective as it might be.

What you're trying to do OP is remove ANY of white people's responsibility.

Saying the problem doesn't belong to white people. You're putting it on black people.

It's BAME disprivilege indeed! That's a crock of shit.

You're putting the responsibility on the shoulders of the victims!

This is an interesting report, 'State of the Nation Social Mobility Report 2019.'

It's a long read (about 170 pages and more graphs than you can shake a stick at) so maybe best left for the morning but, from about page 9 it's interesting as they have included for the first a look from an intersectional lens.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/798404/SMC_State_of_the_Nation_Report_2018-19.pdf

@Rubyroost I applaud your post to challenge the perceived narrative. We are all equal, it doesn’t matter the colour of our skin. We are all one in gods eyes, whoever your god may be.

Please put more energy into love than we attempt with hate.

@backseatcookers not being discriminated against isn't a privilege at all though is it. It's expected. No one should be discriminated against.

@CarbsafterMarbs I assume your being cocky and sarcastic. I've said I'm making up and simplifying a scenario and also said it was only my opinion. What point are you trying to make? It's clear from my post that there isn't a source. I made up a simple scenario based on my opinion and stated that...

not being discriminated against isn't a privilege at all though is it. It's expected

That's the point, though - it would be a privilege for a black person because they experience discrimination every day.

The only reason you don't see it as a privilege is because it's normal to you, White people expect not to be discriminated against and they demand higher standards. Many black people are so accustomed to everyday racism that it's just the world they live in. They can't challenge every microagression as there just aren't enough hours in the day. They expect to be discriminated against because of the colour of their skin. That's the norm for them.

If you centre black people, then of course not being discriminated against looks like a privilege.

@LonginesPrime my race is irrelevant. If I was bright green and from Mars I'd still say the same thing.
You're saying not being discriminated against is a privilege?
No, not being discriminated against is how it should be.

@FortunesFave how ridiculous.
By saying they are disprivileged or for a better word discriminated against I am by no means at all saying it is their responsibility. If anything I'm saying the opposite. That we're discriminating them and it's our fault. Not just that white people magically got privilege and have not and do not do anything wrong to get it.

OP I do understand your point but it is ignoring the fact that it is white privilege that is at the heart of the issue.

And white privilege that will help end the issues.

my race is irrelevant. If I was bright green and from Mars I'd still say the same thing

If you were bright green and from Mars, you'd say it's normal to not be discriminated against? You'd expect to experience no discrimination?

What about if people discriminated against you for being green and from Mars?

Would you feel awkward walking into a room of Earthlings knowing you're the only green Martian and there's no way to blend in because they can clearly see your skin is bright green? Would you wonder if there's a reason you're the only green Martian there?

If someone's rude to you, would you call them out on it because you expect to be treated better than that? Or might you be worried that other people will think you're just being paranoid because you're green and you think everyone's out to get you? After all, that person wasn't rude to anyone else. The Earthlings didn't witness the rudeness and they can't imagine that person being rude. Might it just look like you're playing the Martian card again?

If you got discriminated against every time you went into that room full of Earthlings, do you think you might start to expect it?

Hearhooves I actually really don't know about stopping the increased searching. Statistically it makes more sense but for relations it's actually bad.

not being discriminated against isn't a privilege at all though is it. It's expected. No one should be discriminated against.

That's the whole point. I don't think you're going to get it, you seem determined to stand by your thought process on this.

Which is your prerogative but you're not very open to other ways of thinking on it, ones that centre BAME people.

I honestly can't understand why the phrasing is such a focus for you other than what you said earlier about how you don't think white people should expect to be treated worse than they are now to equal how BAME people are treated currently.

That isn't the goal. The goal is for BAME people to be treated better than they are now to equal how white people are treated currently.

If you can't see the difference between those two things I'm not sure this movement is something you'll get your head around.