... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

I've found the best way to explain it to people is by saying:

White privaledge does not mean your life has been easy, it means your life isn't made more difficult because of the colour of your skin.

For example, you can go to an interview and not have to worry about being declined because of your skin colour. You can walk down the street in a hoodie while listening to music and not worry about be stopped and searched. Those are just two examples but there are a lot more.

Oh come on are we really reduced to "it never happened to me therefore it doesn't exist....."?

Surely we can't be heading for that sort of reductive debate?

The stats are very clearly available on women in STEM. I mean I know we all like to think we're trailblazers but it isn't really possible to argue with fact is it?

@TabbyMumz

"Women do it too, I once worked a job and the client (female only office) asked for my male colleague even though we were saying the same thing and didn’t question anything he said but would try and pick apart everything I said." Well, I've worked in top end professional roles all my life and never ever noticed it. If anything, they ask me for advice as opposed to men.

Brilliant. Do you have experience of working in a STEM field? It’s something most of my female peers complain about, I can’t say all as I haven’t met all. Even my male colleague pointed it out to the client. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Oh come on are we really reduced to "it never happened to me therefore it doesn't exist....."?

Surely we can't be heading for that sort of reductive debate?*

Sadly I've seen this attitude on Mumsnet a lot with the recent events. Another thread, posters refused to accept there had been a meme circulating around social media a few years back making fun of a stereotyped black woman, their reason for not believing it? Because they never saw it. Even though a few black posters chimed in to see they had seen it and found it offensive. Same when it comes to racism. Oftentimes on here you get a white person chiming in with "Well, I've never seen any racism!" it's really frustrating

you see I dont see this as an issue either. My daughters know they could go into any career they wanted. Education is there for all. I dont see any barriers. A lot of it is to do with choice. I lot of people perceive there to be barriers where there are none

Fully agree.

there are white working class people who choose to not see that there is a huge gulf in the way they are treated and the way black people are treated.

(I should have read to the end before I replied.)

I don’t find it particularly surprising that people struggling on low incomes and possibly in hard, unrewarding jobs would struggle to see that TBH.

When you have your hands more than full and life is very hard, it IS hard to recognise that other peoples struggle might be structurally harder. Also if you’re stuck in low paying employment, you don’t get as many opportunities to travel and see different perspectives and lifestyles.

"If a black person and a white person both interviewed for a job in a large company in the U.K, and the white person was marginally better qualified, who do you actually think would be offered that job?"

"Im confused by this. If you need someone to be better qualified for the role, the person who is better qualified should get it, regardless of their skin. surely both candidates will have had the same opportunity to get qualified?. However there are a lot of roles, where the qualification isnt necessarily the main thing you want, so you would look for aptitude, personality, ability to do the role. This sort of discrimination really doesnt happen any more you know.

@TabbyMumz

"If a black person and a white person both interviewed for a job in a large company in the U.K, and the white person was marginally better qualified, who do you actually think would be offered that job?"

"Im confused by this. If you need someone to be better qualified for the role, the person who is better qualified should get it, regardless of their skin. surely both candidates will have had the same opportunity to get qualified?. However there are a lot of roles, where the qualification isnt necessarily the main thing you want, so you would look for aptitude, personality, ability to do the role. This sort of discrimination really doesnt happen any more you know.

I think the problem with this scenerio is you have already said the white person is marginally more qualified. Yes, a more qualified and suitable person should get the role. However, a better example would be to say if they we equally matched. In that case if the white person got the job there would always be the question. Yes you never know, it could be the white person was just better in the interview BUT the difference is they would never have to question a job rejection being because of the colour of the skin like BAME people would do.

"Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not there."
And just because you think you see it, doesnt mean its everywhere. I dont see this sort of thing anymore, ie women not getting on as opposed to Men, and the female glass ceiling sort of thing. It just doesnt really exist. I think some women use it as an excuse as to why they arent where they want to be "oh it's because I'm a woman" doesnt wash anymore.

It's about who gets the benefit of the doubt.

You can control for everything else. A lot if work has been done in that area which is good.

In the interview example, the personality vote will be won by the interviers vague notion of He seems a Decent Sort, He'll fit In. Unquantifiable. Cant really explain, but the effects add up.

You are able to dress out of your class, work up, black people will always be black. They can’t hide it.

That really isn't true. Class can't be disguised. If you grew up working class and then somehow, one day, found yourself surrounded by old public school students and started talking your class growing up would become apparent - what did your parents do, what school did you go to, where did you go on holiday, what university did you go to, where does your family live - all class indicators that can't be disguised. Could you, for example, imagine a girl from a council estate in Sunderland, marrying Prince William? Why not? Because of class, so how can it be disguised?

It just doesnt really exist

Thank goodness. Stand down everyone, the stats are patently incorrect.

What a massive relief

My daughter was asked why she didn't enter a scheme in her school.
The advert for the scheme showed 100 people one white boy, and a white girl in a wheel chair, my Daughter pointed this out too her teacher, he told her she should apply as she had 100% of the needed qualities and he said that was sure she as he would pick her out of everyone in her class of 30.
My Daughter bet him a bag of sweets she would not get in , nor would the 3 other white pupils in the class, who he claimed would get a place. There was no limit on how many in a class would receive this advantage.
Well she got her bag of sweets, 10 children were accepted out of the class , none were white.
Explain that.

@Buttercup77
"If a white man with a traditionally British name and a black man with a traditionally Nigerian name sent off the identical same CV to 1000 companies looking to hire someone on the spot (the only thing that differed on the top of the CV was the name - everything else was identical) - if white privilege didn’t exist, you’d expect it to be a coin flip and the white man be offered the job 50% of the time and the black man be offered the job 50% of the time. But of course in reality this is not the case. Not even close to a 50/50 split."
Do you have links to evidence supporting those conclusions? How often is the black Nigerian offered the interview in these circumstances?

What about situations where people who are not white have traditionally english names such as Malaysians, Chinese?

Interesting points. It explained on BBC that white privilege doesn’t mean you don’t have a hard life, just that colour isn’t one of your problems.

Interesting article yesterday and others, pointing to how white working class youngsters do worse than any other group by race and are less likely to go to university than their BAME peers.

@TabbyMumz

"Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s not there." And just because you think you see it, doesnt mean its everywhere. I dont see this sort of thing anymore, ie women not getting on as opposed to Men, and the female glass ceiling sort of thing. It just doesnt really exist. I think some women use it as an excuse as to why they arent where they want to be "oh it's because I'm a woman" doesnt wash anymore.

Yes it does. I never said it was everywhere but it does exist.

I agree the term white privilege is unhelpful. It won’t stop white racists from being racist but it will make white people who are not racist feel self conscious, guilty and uncomfortable around POC.

Racism exists. And of course, being a predominantly white society, in the U.K. it will more often than not originate from a white person. That is sufficient itself to be aware of, and act upon as and when necessary. We don’t need more labels.

I found this a very interesting response to the idea of white supremacy from an African american academic:
Coleman Hughes: Success, Culture & Race" on YouTube

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

You are able to dress out of your class, work up, black people will always be black. They can’t hide it.

That really isn't true. Class can't be disguised. If you grew up working class and then somehow, one day, found yourself surrounded by old public school students and started talking your class growing up would become apparent - what did your parents do, what school did you go to, where did you go on holiday, what university did you go to, where does your family live - all class indicators that can't be disguised. Could you, for example, imagine a girl from a council estate in Sunderland, marrying Prince William? Why not? Because of class, so how can it be disguised?

We’ll have to disagree. It is possible for a WC person to work up and fit in to MC organisations. It might not work for the masses but it is possible. Prince Harry married Megan who was from an (American) Working Class background. It is possible, my point stands black people can never hide their colour.

Another word for privilege could be standard/default. Privilege doesn't mean unusual advantage or extremely favourable conditions (That would mean the disadvantaged position is the standard/default).

It just means this is the standard/default by which everything else is dealt. Those who aren't of that default or don't experience it have to live up to it in some way or struggle or fight long enough to have provisions for them to be able to meet that standard: catered to equally.

No one is asking for the standard to be brought low (to the disadvantaged position. It will be unfair to all), they're asking for the disadvantaged to be brought up to the standard (fair to all).

To use an example, no one is asking for lower opportunities/less provisions for able-bodied people, they're asking for more opportunities, consideration and provisions for those with disabilities to be able to function as easily in society as the able-bodied.

@Cam77

I agree the term white privilege is unhelpful. It won’t stop white racists from being racist but it will make white people who are not racist feel self conscious, guilty and uncomfortable around POC.

Racism exists. And of course, being a predominantly white society, in the U.K. it will more often than not originate from a white person. That is sufficient itself to be aware of, and act upon as and when necessary. We don’t need more labels.

I don't think it's fair for BAME people to be worrying about white peoples feelings when using an appropriate term to describe the oppression they have faced for at least 400 years.....

I think mostly it is the problem with the word privilege.The fact that most people then say it means advantage is more helpful.
An advantage is more understandable,a disadvantage make it feel like some thing you can do something about.
Privilege does not seem something that requires anything other than acceptance.I am white so I have more advantages than a black person and I can use that knowledge.
Privilege,well I have white privilege,I can't change that because I am white,it doesn't demand I do anything else bout it.Also the connotations,because in the UK Privilege = class implies that I just have to do a few acts of kindness each year,give to the right charities and then job done.
I know it's semantics but the words matter.
(And this will probably be picked apart for my poor use of them to expressyself)

White privaledge is also not just about being openly racist. There is a whole history to it and honestly everyone needs to be educated in this to be able to understand why we are still having these racial issues

At the risk of sounding a bit all lives matter which is not the case but I can’t find the answer. Why is white privilege brought up a lot whereas the other forms of privilege mentioned seem to just have been accepted? Beauty, height, that kind of thing. I fully understand the idea of white privilege being comparable in like for like situations so white poor man vs BAME poor man but it’s made such a thing of which at the moment I think would alienate white people who have every other disadvantage in one. If your a tall or short white woman who’s not the prettiest, doesn’t earn a great deal, is an introvert and has a health condition, still being told you are privileged is probably quite grating and doesn’t gather support when actually privilege needs to be looked at as a whole, as a combination of the things in which you don’t meet the ‘ideal’ for want of a better word.

In the U.K. “male privilege” doesnt exist