... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

@TabbyMumz - but the point is that rheee are different kinds of privilege. So your example family might have the privilege of a reasonable home, decent school etc but compared to a white family with a identical set up, they would be disadvantaged.

Because if you are poor, unemployed, multi generational poverty in a run down town you are not privileged. As affluent middle class our privilege comes not only from our skin colour but our upbringing, opportunity etc. I'm not denying white privilege just that it's hard to see if you are at the bottom of the heap.

"Theres a possibility that kid is the only black kid in their class, is the only black kid at each of their hobbies, face social exclusion. "

The children will have been the only black kids in their class but I dont see how that matters? They still got a good education same as their peers, and they definately werent excluded from anything, they were always involved in anything they wanted to. As I've said, they are heavily involved in sport and receive regular accolades for that. So no exclusions whatsoever. I dont know why people find it so hard to think that actually in a lot of places, there is no white privilege, or certainly not as bad as people make it out to be. You can buy black dolls and plasters by the way?! And have been able to for at least 30 years. I have absolutely no doubt that the kids will do well in life. There is a good provision for further education in our area, and there would be no reason why they couldnt access that and do whatever they want to do.

"Tuliptulip

@TabbyMumz- but the point is that rheee are different kinds of privilege. So your example family might have the privilege of a reasonable home, decent school etc but compared to a white family with a identical set up, they would be disadvantaged."

But they are not disadvantaged. In many ways they are better off than lots of white families in our area.

@tabbymumz

But it might matter to the kid. In the same way we see women struggle in stem fields where they are the only woman despite them having access to the same education as boys . It might not be an active discrimination but they might feel the over riding message that this isnt "for them".

My tesco certainly doesnt sell dark skin tone plasters, go to any play group and look at the toys and tell me there is equal representation.

Of course skin colour isnt the only thing that disadvantages people. Peoples cards are stacked in lots of different ways.

theres potentially lots of things you dont see though and things that arent erased from wealth. Theres a possibility that kid is the only black kid in their class, is the only black kid at each of their hobbies, face social exclusion.

But why is that a thing? Why can't we be equal and not draw attention to it? My friends are bringing up their (white) 5 year old in Vietnam where they teach. He is the only white face in his school but he's only ever known people of different colours.

I like Morgan's attitude!

IMO lots of people don't like it because it is more often used as a generalisation that ignores all nuances.

@Tabbymunz - but that is their other privilege coming through. No one is saying that black people can’t have any privilege - maybe your neighbours had relative economic privilege growing up themselves for eg. But to isolate the white privilege element (or the black disadvantage to put it another way), you have to compare like with like. They may be doing well generally but compared to a white family in an identical situation, they will face more challenges.

Because people take it at a personal criticism. People don’t like to acknowledge that what they haven’t isn’t totally down to their own “damn hard work”.

White fragility in action.

"But it might matter to the kid. In the same way we see women struggle in stem fields where they are the only woman despite them having access to the same education as boys . It might not be an active discrimination but they might feel the over riding message that this isnt "for them"."

But if it does matter to the kid, that's not white privilege, that's simply a difference in skin colour. She had exactly the same advantages and chances as any other kid in the school, or sports group, as she has excelled, where other white kids havent. Why must you insist she was hard done to? She absolutely wasnt.

Equality works pretty well for me. I don't think it helps bring people together when we divide them so very much and if I were in a dire situation being told I had heaps of privilege would go down very badly indeed. My family are from Sunderland. Compared with black teeaagers in London there is no comparison - much worse off up there. In fact a good few of the 3% black people in the UK will be better off than a lot than some of the 97% who are not black. That is probably why people do not like the use of the term.
I just find it divisive.

"Tabbymunz- but that is their other privilege coming through. No one is saying that black people can’t have any privilege - maybe your neighbours had relative economic privilege growing up themselves for eg. But to isolate the white privilege element (or the black disadvantage to put it another way), you have to compare like with like. They may be doing well generally but compared to a white family in an identical situation, they will face more challenges."
The parents were brought up in the same area, went to the same school as their peers, had the same chances. Yes, perhaps they could have gone further, as could many white people, but to me theres no white privilege there, just a whole mix of other factors, like choice, attainment, ability, etc.

"In the same way we see women struggle in stem fields where they are the only woman despite them having access to the same education as boys"
You see I dont see this as an issue either. My daughters know they could go into any career they wanted. Education is there for all. I dont see any barriers. A lot of it is to do with choice. I lot of people perceive there to be barriers where there are none.

White privilige doesn't mean for a moment that a white person can't have a life filled with challenges whether that's poverty, disability etc. What it does mean is that the colour of their skin isn't an additional challenge.

@Puppybum

I think perhaps I'm privileged because I live in my native country perhaps

Are you trying to say that BAME aren’t natives based on colour? I have news for you, no one is native to the UK. Anglo Saxons - Saxons were French. Celts were from India, Scots are a clan from Ireland etc...

@TabbyMumz

"In the same way we see women struggle in stem fields where they are the only woman despite them having access to the same education as boys" You see I dont see this as an issue either. My daughters know they could go into any career they wanted. Education is there for all. I dont see any barriers. A lot of it is to do with choice. I lot of people perceive there to be barriers where there are none.

That isn’t true. I work in a STEM field. I have more training and experience than my colleagues in my specific field yet I get ignored and the men get listened to. It’s an issue that I’ve noticed since I graduated. Women do it too, I once worked a job and the client (female only office) asked for my male colleague even though we were saying the same thing and didn’t question anything he said but would try and pick apart everything I said.

It’s a legitimate analytical model but it’s a hard sell. For my money “BAME disadvantage” is clearer, more accurate, and easier for people to wrap their heads around.

We do need more people to wrap their heads about the disparity in treatment and opportunities of our citizens depending on their ethnicity. So the question is does the BLM (and wider) movement want to be right, or does it want to be widely understood?

White privilege is used as a comparison point where all other variables aside from race or racial indicators are kept constant.

But that isn't how it's being used now, is it? As with all references to privilge it's applied to the group as a whole.

So, male privilege is applied to all men, not just when all other variables are equal.

Same with white privilege. We are being told that white privilege have an advantage over black people - not just when all other variables are equal.

I don't understand how intersectionality doesn't apply. How can you possibly argue that a white, working class disabled woman has privilege when compared to a black, able bodied middle class man? Yet that's exactly what is being said at the moment, that skin colour matters more than any other factor.

If you look at education, white working class boys underperform more than any other group. Someone posted stats last night that white working class students are the least likely to go to university, yet people will be arguing that they have white privilege and steps should be taken to address that. So, how? Will black students be offered help at school, which in reality will make white working class boys even more disadvantaged?

I've seen arguments that black students would be disadvantaged if applying to Oxbridge because they might not have the same breadth of experience that a white student has - but it's not really a white student they're talking about is it, it's a white middle class student?

Of course we must eradicate racism. That should have no place in society today, absolutely no place. But our society isn't equal. The majority of people suffer from inequality in one form or another. How do you remove inequality? Communism?

I am disabled, white, but from a Jewish background. My grandmother's family changed their surname to try and escape the persecution that they suffered here. As a disabled person should I now be expecting every able bodied person to be working to eradicate the able bodied privilege that they enjoy? How? Because I might then have privilege in other areas that they don't have.

These arguments just seem to want to segregate all of us, to group us with people who are the same, rather than trying to unite society.

@SacramentoQueen

"If a black person and a white person both interviewed for a job in a large company in the U.K, and the white person was marginally better qualified, who do you actually think would be offered that job?"
Presumably you are trying to infer the white person would get the job? I don't agree with your inference because that would be saying every interviewer is racist.

Whenever I have interviewed for a role and qualifications and experience between two candidates (of any colour) have been pretty much on a par, I have chosen based on personality and attitude during the interview. However, even if someone did choose the marginally better qualified person every time, that is not racist. That might be pre-determined criteria on which to offer the job precisely to ensure a lack of discrimination.

"Same question can be asked with man/woman or disabled person/non disabled person"
So are you assuming that interviewers, rather than offering the roles to the marginally better qualified person, offer the role because based on them discriminating against whoever they don't offer it to? Is that really what you are inferring?

Oh, how very dare people have the temerity to disagree with you!

@ArriettyJones

It’s a legitimate analytical model but it’s a hard sell. For my money “BAME disadvantage” is clearer, more accurate, and easier for people to wrap their heads around.

We do need more people to wrap their heads about the disparity in treatment and opportunities of our citizens depending on their ethnicity. So the question is does the BLM (and wider) movement want to be right, or does it want to be widely understood?

The issue with your statement is that the same people who can’t get your head around white privilege still won’t be able to get their head around black disadvantage. People want to believe that black people deserve what treatment they’re get. “They choose to be poor” etc even in this thread there are white working class people who choose to not see that there is a huge gulf in the way they are treated and the way black people are treated. You are able to dress out of your class, work up, black people will always be black. They can’t hide it.

"Women do it too, I once worked a job and the client (female only office) asked for my male colleague even though we were saying the same thing and didn’t question anything he said but would try and pick apart everything I said."
Well, I've worked in top end professional roles all my life and never ever noticed it. If anything, they ask me for advice as opposed to men.

[quote NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite]**@SacramentoQueen

"If a black person and a white person both interviewed for a job in a large company in the U.K, and the white person was marginally better qualified, who do you actually think would be offered that job?"
Presumably you are trying to infer the white person would get the job? I don't agree with your inference because that would be saying every interviewer is racist.

Whenever I have interviewed for a role and qualifications and experience between two candidates (of any colour) have been pretty much on a par, I have chosen based on personality and attitude during the interview. However, even if someone did choose the marginally better qualified person every time, that is not racist. That might be pre-determined criteria on which to offer the job precisely to ensure a lack of discrimination.

"Same question can be asked with man/woman or disabled person/non disabled person"
So are you assuming that interviewers, rather than offering the roles to the marginally better qualified person, offer the role because based on them discriminating against whoever they don't offer it to? Is that really what you are inferring?[/quote]
You don’t understand implicit bias. We all have it. If you aren’t even aware of your implicit bias then you are likely acting on racist thoughts.

The issue with your statement is that the same people who can’t get your head around white privilege still won’t be able to get their head around black disadvantage. People want to believe that black people deserve what treatment they’re get.

Oh I’ve met people who are bamboozled by the privilege concept but perfectly accepting that ethnic minorities, the disabled, LGBT are disadvantaged. Not very sophisticated or MC people, but then it’s poor and marginalised people or provincial dwellers who are most likely to struggle with the idea that they are “privileged”.