... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

I was reminded last night a week or two before lockdown there was a black woman on crutches who no one offered a seat for. I was also standing so I couldn’t offer her a seat. I’ve never seen a white person on crutches where no one offered them a seat.

See, this is part of the problem. You've attributed this to race. I'm white. I've been on the tube on crutches, with a walking stick, wearing a "Beckham boot", with a full hip to ankle plaster cast and with a full leg brace - many times I've been offered a seat but quite a few times I haven't been.

My parents are in their 80s and white - they are offered a seat about 75% of the time.

So, it's not only about race. Mainly it's selfishness or being oblivious to others.

Posted too soon.

Your interpretation of the lady on the tube is an example of confirmation bias.

I've been on tram quite a few times where someone with crutches wasn't offered a seat.

I also once stood up to give my seat to a man on crutches my seat and a random woman pushed in and stole the seat. The man and woman were both white. I'm not, although I'm not black, just a bit yellow and if you weren't looking at my face I might pass as white. Does that mean anything? I don't even fucking know anymore.

@Alittleshortforaspacepooper

I've been on tram quite a few times where someone with crutches wasn't offered a seat.

I also once stood up to give my seat to a man on crutches my seat and a random woman pushed in and stole the seat. The man and woman were both white. I'm not, although I'm not black, just a bit yellow and if you weren't looking at my face I might pass as white. Does that mean anything? I don't even fucking know anymore.

That's the problem with using one random encounter to prove a point.

The poster who mentioned the lady on crutches has no basis on which to say it's due to racism. People do ignore those who need a seat, regardless of colour.

Having white privilege isn't racist.

Denying white privilege is.

The fact that there are BAME people on this thread trying to convince others (both white and BAME) that structural racism even exists shows just how entrenched it is.

You can say I'm deluded (and I know that you will!), but that's how oppressive power structures work. One of the key maintenance factors is denial of the structure's existence. This gaslighting (whether intentional or unintentional) means that the oppressed class expends all of their time and energy trying to persuade the dominant class that the structure even exists in the first place. And who is gong to put resources into solving a problem that doesn't exist?

The denial of structural racism misdirects and depletes the resources of the BAME community so there's nothing left to fight for the actual work that's needed.

Shaming people of the dominant class into silence by calling them 'woke', etc and telling them not to interfere as it's not their fight is another maintenance factor of structural oppression. As is framing the denial of structural oppression as 'independent thinking' or being offended by being told what to think, which frames the oppressed class as the aggressors, 'pushing their view of reality on everyone else'.

The people saying they're not racist - that's great, but if that's genuinely true, why are you denying that others experience structural racism? If you're genuinely committed to tackling racism, stop denying white privilege exists and let people get on with solving the actual problems. By questioning the existence of white privilege, you are obstructing progress in tackling racial oppression by creating additional hurdles for BAME people to overcome.

And while it's obviously very generous of BAME people to sacrifice their their time and energy to educate others, and their voices should absolutely be centred in all of this, I do feel it's unfair to expect explanations from them, given that they're the victims of the system you're denying the existence of.

Oppressed classes shouldn't be doing the heavy lifting when it comes to establishing whether there's even a problem with structural oppression. Only the dominant class can address the problem and they've been told it exists - it's their responsibility to listen.

In the same way that it's not women's job to explain feminism to men, it's not BAME people's job to explain racism to white people.

I agree with the previous posters and the theorists who have pointed out that using 'privilege' to discuss things like not being killed by those acting on behalf of the state has more than a few issues.

There is absolutely no evidence that teaching White people about White privilege makes them more considerate towards BAME people, if anything it just makes them more harsh towards other White people who have other disadvantages. The social theories of privilege have merit, but how they're being used obviously has a lot of flaws.

To me, it's largely because it's a social theory meant to discuss things at a population level. At that level, it works well, though obviously no social theory is perfect. It works best in discussing US society where the theories originated (it can be adapted for elsewhere, but too often it is rubber stamped badly everywhere else).

Once we start making it individualist, that it is something every individual either has or doesn't, something we possess or don't, we get holes and problems. Making a systemic issue individualistic tends to just make things into arguments and little productive gets done. It goes from social theory to binary ideology of good and bad demographics and actual complex individual situations get dismissed.

To me, it's not whether or not people believe society gives some 'privileges', but what the outcome of the social theory and I can't find any evidence that suggests this theory when put at an individual level as in the OP does anything of worth. I'd far rather have someone who thinks everyone has it shite, but supports work towards systemic change than the frequent shallow privilege/victim bad/good shouting matches I see online pretending to be activism that seem to misuse privilege theories the most.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Posted too soon.

Your interpretation of the lady on the tube is an example of confirmation bias.

🙄 I’ve studied psychology and yes it could be confirmation bias. However, there are many little incidents that happen that I’ve watched. Do you want more? You realise it is racist to say these incidents aren’t happening. You are trying to gaslight me and my experiences. You are wrong, there is racism. People experience this every damn day.

@Alittleshortforaspacepooper

I've been on tram quite a few times where someone with crutches wasn't offered a seat.

I also once stood up to give my seat to a man on crutches my seat and a random woman pushed in and stole the seat. The man and woman were both white. I'm not, although I'm not black, just a bit yellow and if you weren't looking at my face I might pass as white. Does that mean anything? I don't even fucking know anymore.

I travel the same route everyday so I see mostly the same people especially when commuting and can watch their reactions and can compare. There is one really annoying couple who hang over three seats regardless of who is in the third seat. There are a couple of men who sit in the priority seat even if the train is empty. These are the same people I see in a daily basis.

@Xenia

It is offensive because it is an order (in the English language ) and that is not how polite people speak. if it were put as "perhaps you would like to consider if you are privileged" that is not so bad but still a bit rude to say to someone.

I do try to be kind and understand people. It is one reason I go on threads with housewives, sexist women, women who even vote for the dreaded Labour party and why I read the Guardian and Telegraph every day as well as the FT. I like to hear other views.

I don't deny the 3% who are black in the UK do not (some of them - by no means all) get treated badly due to their skin colour and I would never do that and nor would most British people. I don't deny some black people are racist against white too nor that all of us have some or other disadvatnages in life. In the UK class issues are much much bigger than colour and the comparisons with parts of the USA are pointless and do the black cause no good in the UK.

The black cause? Really? That’s how you have decided to phrase the issues we are talking about. You are the offensive one. The fact you find the need to stress 3% (which by the way doesn’t take into account mixed race people) tells me all I need to know about you.

You realise it is racist to say these incidents aren’t happening. You are trying to gaslight me and my experiences. You are wrong, there is racism. People experience this every damn day.

How am I trying to gaslight you? I simply said that the one incident that you gave happens to many people who have disabilities. From that one example, how can you conclude it is due to racism? People don't treat disabled people very well, regardless of their race, I'm afraid.

Me questioning the reason for that one incident is neither gaslighting nor racism.

Having white privilege isn't racist.

Denying white privilege is.

Do you understand that there are non-white people, and black people, who do not like these terms, do not think that systemic racism or privilege, are good terms or ways to characterise things? Who think that a lot of the ideas you are talking about are in themselves deeply racist?

I don't know why you are so caught up in telling ourself that anyone who doesn't think about things in the same way you do must be a racist, but you are fooling yourself and it's manipulative. There are different ways to interpret things or describe things, people have different ideas about what is going on, and that does not mean they are racists or are deliberately trying to obscure the truth.

It's a very interesting discussion.

I have a really good friend who is half African and half English. Her dad moved here when he was 1.

She doesn't believe in white privilege.

She doesn't believe blackface should be banned.

Believes if you ban blackface you should also ban whiteface.

It's been very interesting discussing this with someone who's parents are from both sides of the coin.

She does believe though that there is inequality in the country. But I don't think anyone can deny that. She just doesn't think everywhere is the same black/white divide and there's far more factors involved than simply race.

Do you understand that there are non-white people, and black people, who do not like these terms, do not think that systemic racism or privilege, are good terms or ways to characterise things? Who think that a lot of the ideas you are talking about are in themselves deeply racist?

Yes, of course - that's the raison d'être of this thread.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the concept of brown privilege and brown fragility? It's the new thing. And Longines I can confirm that my last post was on the correct thread.

@itsgettingweird

I feel similarly to your friend. Granted I am Indian not black so don't comment on black face as it's not my place.

But I would have no problem with someone 'browning up' to dress up as an Indian character for say Halloween anymore than I would a man dressing up as a woman (another oppressed minority I am also a part of). But then I think there is a difference between than and a white person being payed to visibly alter their race appearance to portray a character in tv/film (think Scarlett Johansson). I would have a problem with someone claiming to be Indian or 'transracial' though as that would mean them trying to enter into spaces and schemes specifically designed to help Indian people who are already at a disadvantage (e.g. scholarships or grant schemes.

However if blackface is deemed to not be ok then I don't think any dressing/making up as an alternative race is ok, that does feel a double standard to me.

However there are other instances where I feel it's not a double standard to provide black and other people of colour with access to things white people don't. Things like scholarships or grant programs as these are designed to give minorities a 'leg up' to get them to the level white people are already at whether white people done need a 'white students scholarship' because they are already the advantages race. However there isn't anything to stop white people disadvantaged in other ways from applying for scholarships relative to those hardships (class, financial, ect).

I also don't think company's should have diversity 'quotas' to fulfill as this does sometimes lead to someone being hired for the colour of their skin even if they aren't the best person for the job and I think positive discrimination is still wrong. Also this leads to individual white people experiencing racial discrimination - not being hired because the colour of their skin isn't right, and I don't think anyone experiencing this is ok no matter what advantages they have had up to that point, the best person overall should be hired for the job. I don't know how to fix this, colour blind hiring? Removing all personal details such as age/race/sex/name from CV's? But then I wouldn't expect any company to hire without interviewing and this can hardly be kept colourblind. So I don't have a perfect answer.

It really is a minefield with so many variations and nuances to take into consideration.

@UninventiveUsername

I don't know what you mean by 'brown privilege' or 'brown fragility'. But as a 'brown' person I would say brown privilege is a myth. I have never known someone who's skin is 'brown' gain any kind of advantage because of it, in fact quite the opposite, I and my 'brown' friends and family have received plenty of discrimination because of the colour of my skin.

It was trending on twitter yesterday or the day before.

mobile.twitter.com/NodinNganji/status/1274144115467452422

@UninventiveUsername

Does anyone have any thoughts on the concept of brown privilege and brown fragility? It's the new thing. And Longines I can confirm that my last post was on the correct thread.

Could you tell us more about it?

Brown privilege implies that we have more privilege than black people because our skin isn't as dark but less than white people. However it fails to recognise that 'brown' people are tokenised by the white as a show of tolerance without actually being tolerant towards us, just using us to negate criticisms of racism

@itsgettingweird

It's a very interesting discussion.

I have a really good friend who is half African and half English. Her dad moved here when he was 1.

She doesn't believe in white privilege.

She doesn't believe blackface should be banned.

Believes if you ban blackface you should also ban whiteface.

It's been very interesting discussing this with someone who's parents are from both sides of the coin.

She does believe though that there is inequality in the country. But I don't think anyone can deny that. She just doesn't think everywhere is the same black/white divide and there's far more factors involved than simply race.

Well yes, different people think/feel different things, even within the black community.

I am mixed race (similar background to your friend) I would say that as a mixed race person, who, benefit from ''white privileges by proxy'' (from having a white parent and slightly lighter skin), I don't think it's for me to ''believe'' or ''not believe'' something exist or doesn't exist and is offensive or not offensive when it obviously doesn't affect me to the extent it does others (black people).

Not saying your friend shouldn't be entitled to think and believe whatever she believes and think, but I don't think experience of a Mixed Race person on the issue of race should account for as much as the one of a black person or the black community.

I also think background (the fact that she has a British parent and her dad came to the UK at 1) shape one's experience. The fact that she has two parents who are culturally British due to both having grown up in the UK, meaning likely not having a foreign accent etc... make a lot of difference in treatment too.

(A look at the Niqab thread will show how a lot of UK people seem to see as non-culturally appropriate).

I grew up is an African (step) dad and he moved to the country at 18, he speaks fluent French but he doesn't always use the right pronouns, has an accent and sometime still use the wrong words, he also have a big attachement to his African heritage having grown up there, so it's not rare to see him in African clothing out and about, and he has more conservative value than in most of the UK, those small details changes a lot how people respond to him vs my brothers born and raised there and with no accent and wearing western clothes and to all of us as a family.

There is no denying that in my family, each of us experience racism and discrimination at a different scale due to different factors

-Skin tone ( We are all a different shade of brown/black)

• Hair type
• Sex
• Accent vs lack of accent
• Clothing
• Values.

Obviously again your friend's experience is absolutely valid and interesting to hear about but I think if you talked to me and my siblings and my stepdad you would notice a drastic difference of treatment, the darker skinned and men (with more African values/habits) treated worse and women and men with lighter skin treated slightly better. It's living in this multicultural family where I see my siblings being mistreated at different degrees due to their specific characteristics that I realized that my experience as a Mixed race, lighter skin woman, while important and valid, can absolutely NOT be the voice of people of color and the most oppressed within the black community as I simply benefit too much (still) from the system.

@Linning

Can I ask what 'more conservative' views your dad holds which he experiences discrimination for?

Just because I think there are some cases of people from other countries coming over here, bringing their more conservative views with them, and then not only continuing them in their own lives but expecting others to conform to them to make them feel welcome in the U.K. when actually when coming to the U.K. there should be an element of having to adopt some U.K. values.

I say this because my grandparents can sometimes be similar. Came over from India but then criticise people in the U.K (between themselves, not to their face, but I still think it's wrong) for dressing too 'provocatively' and not sharing the same values as them when actually they were the ones that chose to join this culture and knew the values when they were coming over.

C130 I found this video on twitter and you should look on there if you want to know more. You don't need to be a twitter member to search. #brownfragility #brownprivilege #browncomplicity

My gut thoughts. It may have a point but it does not offer a solution. It's as divisive as "white privilege". It minimises racism experienced by those with brown skin. It discounts achievements and success as being due to "white complicity" and "anti blackness". It is a convienient label for conservatives/right wingers with brown skin of any shade. Another way of saying "not politically black".

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

You realise it is racist to say these incidents aren’t happening. You are trying to gaslight me and my experiences. You are wrong, there is racism. People experience this every damn day.

How am I trying to gaslight you? I simply said that the one incident that you gave happens to many people who have disabilities. From that one example, how can you conclude it is due to racism? People don't treat disabled people very well, regardless of their race, I'm afraid.

Me questioning the reason for that one incident is neither gaslighting nor racism.

You’ll need to try harder. You’ve spent the last 10 pages gaslighting and denying racism exists. That is racist. You’ve twisted @Linning’s posts to try and say something very different to what she was trying to explain. She took the time to write in a multitude of different ways the same point to try and make it easy for you to understand. You don’t want to understand, that is crystal clear from your behaviour.

Lining fair enough. But her dad doesn't feel the same either. The point she was making is she feels that there's a belief that all black people feel oppressed and white people all benefit from privilege.
But her black African dad had more opportunity than her white WC mum. And she said it happens but it isn't as MSM and SM would have us believe .
It happens in all groups.

In actual fact she said her dad has a high powered well paid job because that's what family decided he'd be. That's their culture. She said he had too much opportunity but no choice.

I'm white. I cannot know what it's like to have black or brown skin.

But I did live abroad for a number of years and struggled to grasp the language fluently. It was a very white country. I do know that in that instance for me it did limit my access to fully effective healthcare and job opportunities. It's why when I split with da dad who was fluent (been there since a child) I eventually returned to the U.K.

This is why I have masses of empathy for asylum seekers. Having to leave their lives behind and then struggling even though they are also safe.
I think there should be a mass state funded English teaching programme for adults with EFL. It would be a basic starting point to improve life chances, access to healthcare etc.
We know public health is the fundamental baseline.

[quote NotMyNicknames]@Linning

Can I ask what 'more conservative' views your dad holds which he experiences discrimination for?

Just because I think there are some cases of people from other countries coming over here, bringing their more conservative views with them, and then not only continuing them in their own lives but expecting others to conform to them to make them feel welcome in the U.K. when actually when coming to the U.K. there should be an element of having to adopt some U.K. values.

I say this because my grandparents can sometimes be similar. Came over from India but then criticise people in the U.K (between themselves, not to their face, but I still think it's wrong) for dressing too 'provocatively' and not sharing the same values as them when actually they were the ones that chose to join this culture and knew the values when they were coming over. [/quote]
He doesn’t judge others (he doesn’t always understand all western values but he doesn’t judge) band would not ever start debate or try to impose his views on others, but he is conservative in how he educated his kids and he is very Christian (we are not) and he got a lot of shit from my mom's (aka white) family for his beliefs but also honestly just because he is black and they have a lot of prejudice about black men even of they will deny they do.

He has definitely adapted to the local life but a lot of people have apprehensions and bias towards black men, so I can definitely see the reaction to him vs a white men in the vicinity, specifically from women I would say which I can get of course but isn’t any less harmful.

Although while it’s irrelevant he didn’t necessarily come here by choice but necessity, he is a genocide survivor and lost 90% of his family including most of his siblings and both his parents so that’s why his culture, religion and value are extra important and while he fits in (mostly) he doesn’t always feel the need to wear western clothes etc...