... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

@mummmy2017

My daughter was asked why she didn't enter a scheme in her school. The advert for the scheme showed 100 people one white boy, and a white girl in a wheel chair, my Daughter pointed this out too her teacher, he told her she should apply as she had 100% of the needed qualities and he said that was sure she as he would pick her out of everyone in her class of 30. My Daughter bet him a bag of sweets she would not get in , nor would the 3 other white pupils in the class, who he claimed would get a place. There was no limit on how many in a class would receive this advantage. Well she got her bag of sweets, 10 children were accepted out of the class , none were white. Explain that.

What was the scheme? I can’t explain it without knowing the scheme. However, having been a teacher I can’t tell you the amount of times capable students have been looked over and I taught in a majority white area. Sometimes the students didn’t put forward a particularly strong case, especially if they believed they had a right to go. In my experience though there was a reward trip where not one BAME student got invited to go on.

We’ll have to disagree. It is possible for a WC person to work up and fit in to MC organisations. It might not work for the masses but it is possible. Prince Harry married Megan who was from an (American) Working Class background. It is possible, my point stands black people can never hide their colour.

I don't think you can ever eradicate class from people who think it's important. You can't work up or fit in, really. You can try to disguise it and succeed much of the time maybe but if people are bothered and ask the right questions then it will become apparent.

It's interesting that you don't accept that there's middle class privilege in this way though - isn't this the very problem we are discussing? There are many types of privilege/disadvantage and not everyone can see every privilege, just as you're doing here? As a working class person you are very much aware of the privilege that middle class people have yet you're dismissing it as "well, you can just fit in".

I think Meghan Merkle had the benefit of being American, where the class issue is not the same as in the UK and she was also wealthy. There really is no prospect of a working class girl, who went to state school and lived on a council estate, marrying into the Royal Family.

I am nnot suggesting that BAME worry about others feelings and are right to feel angry just that imho if you use the word Privilege most people will stop listening and we actually need everyone to hear and understand.

@lampygirl it's being discussed so often because of the current events surrounding the Black Lives matter movment. Right now the focus needs to be on this.

"White privilege" is such a terrible, awful idea it's difficult to even know where to begin.

Any idea that people try to enforce with a kafkatrap is immediately suspect.

You are able to dress out of your class, work up, black people will always be black. They can’t hide it.

Oh no, you can't dress out of your class convincingly. Not to some people. Take it from someone who is from a rough background and went to the "wrong" university. I worked bloody hard for my degree, by the way, despite it not being from a top university. I married a doctor and I am frequently find myself in social situations with people who very quickly ask me all of the "right" questions to confirm that I am, indeed, a scummy council estate chav who is beneath them, and has no place in their social circle.

@Cam77

I agree the term white privilege is unhelpful. It won’t stop white racists from being racist but it will make white people who are not racist feel self conscious, guilty and uncomfortable around POC.

Racism exists. And of course, being a predominantly white society, in the U.K. it will more often than not originate from a white person. That is sufficient itself to be aware of, and act upon as and when necessary. We don’t need more labels.

For me the issue is there are any number of people who think they aren’t racist but their actions and often their words are. They get offended at being told saying x is offensive. It’s worse to be called racist then it is to be racist. Look at the poster who is trying to saying the glass ceiling doesn’t exist. That it’s women’s fault they aren’t getting places. It wouldn’t surprise me if she was a man or a woman who got her job via nepotism as they are so intent to try to prove that life is a even playing field.

@GreytExpectations but It’s very rare to see major discussions regarding other areas of privilege, other than possibly gender and class, outside of the current focus on the BLM campaigns. I was aware of the white privilege concepts long before the recent events.

In the U.K. “male privilege” doesnt exist

Do you again mean "I've never experienced something so it can't possible happen"?

Surely thats the problem with privilege that when the system works for us we have no idea?

Eg some of my male friends simply dont experience that feeling that i get when walking down an unlit street at night or when a man in a car pulls up to you at night. Doesnt mean my male friends arent worried about other things, doesnt mean i dont leave my house or achieve things or that ive experienced something terrible myself, not all women get it when walking down a dark alley but its an experience thats common in women. Its really difficult to explain, doesnt mean i want men to experience it or i blame all the men i know for it.

However i would expect that men would listen to me when i say i get that uncomfortable feeling even if they dont, or they think women are equal to men.

There are lots of reasons why people don't believe white privilege is a "thing" - some valid, some not. These are my thoughts and I am not arguing that they are all correct or justified beliefs, only that I think some people hold them.

First, we are raised to believe that all people are equal. A person who truly believes all are equal will find it hard to accept the idea that actually we are not. (If we were all equal it would be impossible for privilege to exist.)

Next, people don't like to be told, directly or indirectly, that they are somehow responsible for the skin colour they were born with. White privilege implies that white people are at fault, that they have created a situation where they are advantaged, when actually they might personally have no responsibility for it at all. Furthermore, if you do accept this argument then you imply that BAME people are equally at fault for their part in creating the situtation.

We are told that generalising and stereotyping are wrong. Lumping all white people together as some privileged mass is doing both.

People who are in obviously advantaged positions like to believe their situation is due to their work and personality (the myth that the reason I am richer than someone else is because I worked harder, for example. Perhaps I just got lucky).

I am quite possibly wrong but from the various threads on transgender issues we see on Mumsnet I feel that there are a lot of cisgender privileged women who don't accept that transgender women are at a disadvantage to them, much less willing to campaign for them to be treated equally.

I make this last point because it is an equivalent problem and may help those who reject the idea that they are privileged to have been born the gender they identify as understand why others reject the idea that they are privileged to have been born a particular race.

I don't think it's fair for BAME people to be worrying about white peoples feelings when using an appropriate term to describe the oppression they have faced for at least 400 years.....

I’m quite enjoying “worrying about” general perception of the model, thanks.

You do you and I’ll do me.

[quote lampygirl]@GreytExpectations but It’s very rare to see major discussions regarding other areas of privilege, other than possibly gender and class, outside of the current focus on the BLM campaigns. I was aware of the white privilege concepts long before the recent events.[/quote]
Well that's the problem. This particular privaledge is costing innocent black lives at the hands of the authorities. Its also a problem in the UK but in a different way. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't be making a big deal out of it?

@Cam77

I don't think it's fair for BAME people to be worrying about white peoples feelings when using an appropriate term to describe the oppression they have faced for at least 400 years.....

BAME people haven’t been oppressed for 400 years. It’s a nonsense statement. I think, rather ironically, you give white people far too much credit.

Please provide me with you sources that claim this isn't true. You sound like you are denying racism is an issue.

@Alittleshortforaspacepooper

You are able to dress out of your class, work up, black people will always be black. They can’t hide it.

Oh no, you can't dress out of your class convincingly. Not to some people. Take it from someone who is from a rough background and went to the "wrong" university. I worked bloody hard for my degree, by the way, despite it not being from a top university. I married a doctor and I am frequently find myself in social situations with people who very quickly ask me all of the "right" questions to confirm that I am, indeed, a scummy council estate chav who is beneath them, and has no place in their social circle.

Exactly. It's interesting how some people try to dismiss disadvantage/discrimination towards other groups. Clearly the view is that as long as you are white every other obstacle is surmountable and can be removed, and it won't isn't the case, particularly where class is concerned.

This particular privaledge is costing innocent black lives at the hands of the authorities.

That’s exactly it though. This is the starkest illustration of why “privilege” is not quite the best term.

It is NOT a “privilege” to get through an ordinary day without being slaughtered by a policeman, following some minor issue. That’s a basic RIGHT, and if you belong to a community or ethnicity which isn’t being granted that right, you are very clearly at a DISADVANTAGE compared to the general population, probably because of discrimination or prejudice.

It’s just a nonsense to apply the concept of “privilege” to police killings and police brutality. It would only make sense if being assaulted and murdered by the police was the norm and a lucky few were granted immunity from it.

I think it's the word privilege that confuses people. Maybe a bit of a stretch to say extroverts have an advantage though, it's a pretty even spread I'd say. I think if I compare it to male privilege it is quite easy to understand. We a of our car to some twat off Facebook last week. He turned up outside with the truck and my DH was like "you ok to do it" because he had a call. I was like "sure, why wouldn't I be". And they guy then claimed imaginary faults with the car, did me out of £200, just sat his huge arse in the car with the key in and the V5 on the seat and said oh I could always drive it up the road. He laughed at me when I said that wasn't acceptable (apparently he was joking given it has a flat). I can bet you any money he'd have tried none of that shit if my DH had been there, and so my DH would have come away with exactly the money he'd agreed, and been none the wiser that it was male privilege.

I agree with all your points but some people don’t feel privileged. White middle class or educated men do Have more access to blue collar jobs or higher paid jobs where as working class men are very much in the same camp as minorities.

A report from the National Education Opportunity Network (NEON) released In 2019 found that the white working class are the group least likely to go to university, after the Traveller community. More than half of UK universities have a student population in which the proportion of white people from low-income families is less than 5 per cent.

Whilst white privilege absolutely does exist it’s a lot more nuanced than just white people are more privileged over black people.

Personally I think it’s more indigenous population privelage. White privelage is an oversimplification.
The UKs indigenous population is historically Caucasian ( obviously within that bracket there are different groups - ie anglo saxons not really indigenous but historically they have been here a good while and more difficult now to separate from the indigenous).
Having been a minority white person living in other rich countries where the indigenous population was not white ( Saudi Arabia, Japan) then there was not definitely not white privilege over everyone there, quite the opposite.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

We’ll have to disagree. It is possible for a WC person to work up and fit in to MC organisations. It might not work for the masses but it is possible. Prince Harry married Megan who was from an (American) Working Class background. It is possible, my point stands black people can never hide their colour.

I don't think you can ever eradicate class from people who think it's important. You can't work up or fit in, really. You can try to disguise it and succeed much of the time maybe but if people are bothered and ask the right questions then it will become apparent.

It's interesting that you don't accept that there's middle class privilege in this way though - isn't this the very problem we are discussing? There are many types of privilege/disadvantage and not everyone can see every privilege, just as you're doing here? As a working class person you are very much aware of the privilege that middle class people have yet you're dismissing it as "well, you can just fit in".

I think Meghan Merkle had the benefit of being American, where the class issue is not the same as in the UK and she was also wealthy. There really is no prospect of a working class girl, who went to state school and lived on a council estate, marrying into the Royal Family.

Oh I’m not dismissing it. It is a thing but on a glance if you see a white man in a suit you don’t know if he is WC or MC. You know from a glance that a black man is black. Hence some of the privileges which people are unwilling to accept that they have. There are things that happen to BAME people purely because of the colour of their skin, a more apt comparison would be traditionally good looking privilege and even that only goes so far.

@Carycy

Personally I think it’s more indigenous population privelage. White privelage is an oversimplification. The UKs indigenous population is historically Caucasian ( obviously within that bracket there are different groups - ie anglo saxons not really indigenous but historically they have been here a good while and more difficult now to separate from the indigenous). Having been a minority white person living in other rich countries where the indigenous population was not white ( Saudi Arabia, Japan) then there was not definitely not white privilege over everyone there, quite the opposite.

I’ve seen a few personal accounts of this but they get swallowed up in all the others. (Ignored)

It's because they're ignorant and think that 'white privilege' = 'privilege in general'.

@Carycy

Personally I think it’s more indigenous population privelage. White privelage is an oversimplification. The UKs indigenous population is historically Caucasian ( obviously within that bracket there are different groups - ie anglo saxons not really indigenous but historically they have been here a good while and more difficult now to separate from the indigenous). Having been a minority white person living in other rich countries where the indigenous population was not white ( Saudi Arabia, Japan) then there was not definitely not white privilege over everyone there, quite the opposite.

This doesn’t work, America? Caribbean? The indigenous people aren’t white over in those countries yet still white privilege still occurs there.

Oh I’m not dismissing it. It is a thing but on a glance if you see a white man in a suit you don’t know if he is WC or MC. You know from a glance that a black man is black. Hence some of the privileges which people are unwilling to accept that they have. There are things that happen to BAME people purely because of the colour of their skin, a more apt comparison would be traditionally good looking privilege and even that only goes so far.

Sorry, I don't understand the point about noticing that a black man is black. That's only an issue if the man is treated unfavourably because he's black, surely?

A person in a wheelchair will be seen to be in a wheelchair. Does that mean that all able bodied people are discriminating against disabled people then, simply by observing something?

As people we are all different and we also have many similarities. Surely it's how we behave with regards those differences that is important?

I have a disability. Every single day I'm aware that my life is more difficult because of it. That the world is built for the able bodied. My job prospects are worse, certainly my health care is worse. Should I now accuse every able bodied person of being ableist?