... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

I seen a good case made for saying majority privilige instead of white privilige as its more universal, still exceptions of course.

And, as I often quote to my long suffering daughter

"The poor white man is used by them all as a tool.
He's taught in his school
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
But it ain t him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game"

@Smilethoyourheartisbreaking

*I read a very interesting post by a guy who has written football books reaching out to the white working class right wing

His point was that instead of looking at BLM to attack they should be looking at why their own lives are not as privileged as the people at the top. The landowners who profited from the slave trade. The Etonians who get by on connections and money...not hard work (look at Johnson). Before Black people where in any numbers in this country the white working class were (and still are) oppressed. It does not mean they are not disadvantaged but the colour of skin had meant it was very easy to create a new oppressed. And also use those people to deflect from the ruling classes unwillingness to ensure greater equality for all*

A significant part of the problem with this is that the upper class, elite, privileged Tories sell this aspirational myth, not just to white people, that if you think like them, act like them, work hard, etc, then you basically are just like them. The truth is, the people selling this narrative absolutely despise the working classes, the ill-educated, those with no social status, and wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire. They convince enough people to perpetuate the status quo though.

It's a waste of time to ask those looking up to examine why they're having to look upwards, when they pretty much view themselves as equal and on a level with the people they're having to look upwards at.

I think that some people dont accept the inference of privilege (of any sort) because its somehow undermining their achievement or hard work.

I have been on threads about success and the ubiquitous MNer who earns 100k +. A lot are completely sure that theres a linear equation between hard work and earning a high salary.
When I have questioned this suggesting some people have an advantage due to background, level of education etc it is always fought against.
For instance I believe that a (white) child from a 2 parent family who went to a private school, and then to oxbridge or other highly regarded university will have automatically an advantage.
My DH bought a house when he was 21. He grew up in a council house, left school at 15 and didnt have many privileges, but I think he had an advantage in the era that he grew up that it was possible for a 21 year old with a manual job to be able to buy a house. His nephew is 30, is way more privileged in many ways and has a far better job but is not able to get on the housing ladder.

@user1471453601

I think it's the same reason men cannot see male privilege. I think you have to work at seeing the privilege you have. It's so "normal" and "everday" because it's your lifes experience.

So, just as men have to work at understanding male privilege, white people have to work at understanding their privilege.

It's an uncomfortable experience, acknowledging your privilege, when you might already feel like you are at the bottom of the pile. (Working class white men and white women). But once you start
,it's really not that difficult to face up to home truths.

Yep exactly. Someone on another thread said that that’s why white women seem to understand the concept of white privilege more than white men because they have had the first hand experiences of experiencing some disadvantages in life due to male privilege.

White privilege is used as a comparison point where all other variables aside from race or racial indicators are kept constant.

If a white man with a traditionally British name and a black man with a traditionally Nigerian name sent off the identical same CV to 1000 companies looking to hire someone on the spot (the only thing that differed on the top of the CV was the name - everything else was identical) - if white privilege didn’t exist, you’d expect it to be a coin flip and the white man be offered the job 50% of the time and the black man be offered the job 50% of the time. But of course in reality this is not the case. Not even close to a 50/50 split.

DH and I were talking about this, if the rich and powerful persuade lesser mortals to blame each other (seems to be the middle classes getting the blame for most things atm) then they are left to get on with things to their own advantage.

@MrsPear

I don’t believe in white privilege but I do believe in white native privilege in the UK. You are an idiot if you don’t get it.

What about the black natives?

You forgot about pretty privilege.
Attractive people are treated far better by society.

I think perhaps I'm privileged because I live in my native country perhaps

I agree. I had to stop at some point and just leave it at 'there are too many types of privilege and lack of to go round'.

@Lalalamps

You forgot about pretty privilege. Attractive people are treated far better by society.

Yep. All sorts of privilege.

Attractiveness privilege (an attractive person will on average get further in life than a less attractive person when all other variables between the two are constant apart from attractiveness).

Height privilege (A 6ft man will on average get more work and dating opportunities in life than a 5ft 6 man when all other variables between the two are constant apart from height)

Skin fairness privilege in some cultures, surname privilege, class privilege, parental support privilege, sex privilege... the list goes on.

White privilege is just one of the many privileges. Everyone acknowledges the other privileges or advantages so it’s sometimes baffling that they can’t admit being white in this country can confer you a slight advantage over a BAME person when all the other areas are a level playing field between the two. Living a privileged life is not the same thing as having a privilege.

Tiktokcringeydance I’ve seen a lot of this in other people :(

People also just don’t want to accept the system is prejudiced, because they really want to believe that if you work hard and study a lot then you’ll get ahead.

Spoiler alert: that’s just not true.

From a white female perspective I can tell you that in my early 30s the vast majority of us were cut from our corporate jobs (“they wanted more of a work life balance!”). Blokes were cut too, but in far smaller numbers. Some of the ones left had terrible reviews year in year out, but strangely it was the women that “wanted out”. Nb none of my female coworkers were then even considering having families, so that’s a bullshit excuse.

So what is the result of that culling? Looking at those in the top jobs, they’re really all old white guys. Really 95% in my line of work.

So tell me dear men at the top, is every other group of people thick and lazy, or is the system corrupt and prejudiced?

You don’t think you have privilege, until you see someone exercise theirs against you. Then you know it.

I was only prejudiced as a female. To be BAME and female... don’t know any still in that line of work. And they had double the comments, double the prejudiced expectations, double the exclusion from the top. The intersectional view is so true :(

@Buttercup77 Exactly! There's Privilege, a catch all term with a capital P and under it, there's different forms like you also mentioned.

White privilege is one of them. Don't think it's something for people to feel defensive about any more than a tall person has to be defensive or feel guilty about being tall.

Except some people use their privilege against others, which is then a problem.

I think that some people dont accept the inference of privilege (of any sort) because its somehow undermining their achievement or hard work.

This is very true.

@MaMaLa321

I think that Douglas Murray is one of the few sane voices on this (who, strangely enough, never appears on the BBC). He says that, just as you can't say that all Black people do or are x, you can't say all White people are racist. White working-class boys come out lowest in educational attainment. The Chinese come highest.

How does that translate into jobs - I still mostly see white males leading in industry and business.

Because if people do not experience it themselves then they do not accept that it exists

I agree OP. I also agree that the word 'advantage' is apt. People hear 'privilege' and often think "The privileged", those in charge, the wealthy and famous, forgetting that there are all sorts of privilege.

I do think it's rare to find someone who hasn't got any sort of advantage over someone else. As they say where I come from in a bid to get someone to understand that things aren't so bad or could be worse or to spare a thought for others or to appreciate what they do have, "no matter your situation, there's someone who has it worse than you".

I think the whole thing about white privilege (and most privilege) is that you take for granted that your experience is the norm, and that things you dont even think about (because they are oiled in your favour) might be huge stumbking blocks for others.

Eg it never crossed my mind that my experience of having families that looked like mine or people that looked like me on tv, ballet shoes, dolls that looked like me untill i realised my black neice didnt have those. I never realised that that was a "thing" or how important that was to me or what i would feel like without it , as it was something i always had. The first time i thought id look for ballet shoes, i genuinely hadnt considered in my absolute ignorance that my neice might not just be able to go to the same shop all the women in my family had.

In the same way i booked a restaurant for a meal. Normally i would just book based on food, location etc, but this time i was booking for a family member who uses a wheelchair. All of a sudden i had to think of these things that i never even registered before, i had no idea whether my favourite resturant had steps, a disabled loo etc. I (with good intentions!) Found a restaurant with a disabled slope that turned out to be an absolute nightmare inside.

It gave me a small insight into the considerations and brain space that my aunt has to do every day with something i take for granted. I sort of thought at the time as long as there was a slope it would be okay, but my aunt had to plan toilets, how much space there is inside, table heights every time.

My privilege in both those situations is my ignorance and my assumption that some of the things that were easy for me were easy for others.

I don't understand these sort of discussions. Its not since a couple of weeks ago that we've woken up to the fact that people are born with some privileges. It's always been there, it's part of our lives as much as the fact that some people die you get than others and in most cases unfairly.

We are all responsible for treating people as individuals based on their actions and intentions rather than anything that makes them different to us or the majority, ie, reducing privileged based on things people have no control over but privileges will always be there as a source and just like we have to learn to leave with the fact that we den eradicate all level of unfairness in the world, we won't fully eradicate the fact that some people are born with advantages they can't undo.

I agree with it to a point. I think it also depends where you live etc. There is a black family a few doors down from me. The Father works in a fairly good job, as does the Mum. They have a 3 bed semi and 2 good cars, one a BMW. The Father runs the local football club for kids. Everyone loves him. They are well known in the town. Their children go to the same school as mine. So they have the same advantages of a fairly good education. The daughter is good at sports, so the school put her forward for most sports events and she gets her picture on the school Twitter and local papers regularly, doing well at her chosen sport. I really struggle to see there is any white privilege over them. They do well in life.

xdown

It’s not Tories who despise the working classes. Tories love the working classes even if it is just so the hierarchy can be preserved, as you say.

The liberal elite hate the working class.
You only have to see the comments on mumset about Primark shoppers, sun readers, Brexiteers, McDonald’s users to see that.
Plus comments like Emily Thornberrys about the working class man with a flag in his window, the complete dismissal of the working classes genuine concerns about immigration, the working class man in a bin statue which has just appeared in Bristol, the hottie at working class Northerners daring to vote Tory etc etc

On the actual topic I agree with some previous posters. White advantage would be a much easier term for people to get behind and yes it definitely does exist.

@tabbymumz

Theres potentially lots of things you dont see though and things that arent erased from wealth. Theres a possibility that kid is the only black kid in their class, is the only black kid at each of their hobbies, face social exclusion. Even if their parents have money, think of all the possible little things: the tv programmes they are watching, teachers and their dolls etc are unlikely to look anything like them. If they fall they are likely to get a skin tone plaster for a different skin tone, my neice is delighted theres a prospect of a lego man that has the same hair has her, and that she might get a crayon that replicates her skin tone.

From the outside we have no idea of how privileged etc someones life has been. We have no idea what challenges they have faced or if its been smooth sailing. One black family doing well doesnt mean their kids might not struggle or what their journey to there might have looked like.

I just realised that the above reads like all minorities have some sort of dire life.

Thats not my intention, my intention was to say we have no idea what struggles each family faces, but we know there a certain ones common within certain groups that wealth can only alleviate part of.