AIBU by not being convinced about moving to Ireland?

[Shedbuilder]

My partner's grandparents were born in Ireland and so she's been able to obtain an Irish passport. I'm English. We're very pro-EU and horrified by Brexit and we hate the current government and direction the UK is taking. We're wondering about putting our money where our mouths are and moving to Ireland. Our parents are all dead, we don't have children, we're on good terms, but not particularly close, to our siblings and their families. We'd plan to come back and visit friends and family in the UK several times a year and we've factored in the cost of doing that.

It would suit my partner well. She's very gregarious, she has the blarney and she also has some family over there already. I wouldn't know anyone. I also worry about what it would be like to be noticeably English in Ireland. I'm not at all posh but I sound a bit Radio 4.

I'm concerned that my partner has some pretty romantic ideas about Ireland. She expects it to be so much better than England. She's just been ranting at the far righters Nazi-saluting at the cenotaph and saying proudly that it wouldn't happen in Ireland. I made the mistake of replying no, it wouldn't happen in Ireland because Ireland stayed neutral during WW2 and then for years persecuted and scapegoated the Irish men and women who volunteered to fight Hitler. That didn't go down well.

The area we would be looking at is probably somewhere within a five-mile radius of Enniscorthy and within relatively easy reach of Wexford and Dublin. Also close to the Rosslare ferry and the coast. The property in that area seems excellent value for money: currently looking at a spacious 4-year-old four-bedroom house on an acre, well away from neighbours, and with a separate double garage and a barn for under £300,000.

We know we'll have to have private medical insurance. We know that we'll have a lot of learning to do and that the chances are I'll be an outsider for the rest of my life. As a lesbian I'm used to that. I'm also aware that Ireland has its own issues around transgender and women's rights, but they seem no worse than they are here.

So tell me, would you move to Ireland if you could?

Yes, it’s shocking @mathanxiety. Just because it is better than it was doesn’t mean there isn’t still a very long way to go.

Starsabove1

I will add to that that Irish people are friendly, we don’t necessarily want to be friends. Yes we are chatty, we like to talk, we love finding out about people,. Naturally sharing and over sharing information is interpreted as being friends which can cause a lot of confusion. It is hard to break into cliques as a newcomer.

That’s so true @Sittingontheveranda. And once novelty value for someone new wears off it can be hard for them to understand why their ‘friends’ aren’t ‘friends’ any more.
Not being able to make a new social circle is definitely one of the things that stops me moving back and I’m lucky to still have a large family there.

@mathanxiety, visits and relatives’ visits and discussions at second hand are not remotely comparable to the experience of living day to day in Ireland. I don’t think that you would try to claim otherwise.

I have broadly agreed with you on a number of occasions under different Mn names, but on this thread the outdatedness of some of your positions are glaringly apparent.and, if I may say so, they suffer from the tendency to pontificate of the emigrant determined to remain an authority on his/her native place, regardless of how long it’s been since they last lived there..

I will add to that that Irish people are friendly, we don’t necessarily want to be friends. Yes we are chatty, we like to talk, we love finding out about people,. Naturally sharing and over sharing information is interpreted as being friends which can cause a lot of confusion
Are you speaking for all Irish people.
I hate small talk. I'm not interested in finding out your business unless I click and become your friend.
I made 2 really good friends from poland. Both gone back to buy property in poland ATT I've a new Canadian friend she works in the store, she's outgoing friendly we started meeting every morning on the school run, now she's a regular mate she fit right in. All the DC in this diverse community mix some only have little English but they all join in.

You lost me at "she has the Blarney"
Stay where you are. Please. Just stay there.

I will add to that that Irish people are friendly, we don’t necessarily want to be friends. Yes we are chatty, we like to talk, we love finding out about people,. Naturally sharing and over sharing information is interpreted as being friends which can cause a lot of confusion

True... But does it matter. I don't think it does. All real friendships grow over time without much intentionality. It's just differently presented.

So you are disputing the well documented fact that women experience street harassment in Ireland, @Narrows?

Or my own observations when accompanying a gay man and someone who is not white? This was a very recent experience.

Or maybe my thoughts on the geology of the Dublin area? Rocks haven't changed much since I left.

math You're just very obviously wrongn in where you land with all these observations. You seem to want to feel like you know about Ireland but you haven't lived there as an adult, it seems. Or not recently. And yes you do need to do that too make the sweeping generalisations you're making.

Women experience sexual harassment in many if not most country's.
I remember going to Turkey as a blonde teenager.
@mathanxiety has got a point. I was originally thinking it's not very common.
In the past 15 years different cultures have moved here some not use to hair and skin on display. They do comment.
I had a quick google and from memory of cases the majority of random stranger sex attacks reported rape in a decade were carried out by foreign men.
I've no fear in daylight, I wouldn't walk about comfortably at night. I live in the city centre.
The case below wasn't far from me.
www.rte.ie/news/courts/2019/0605/1053606-rape-sentence/

I think the biggest thing one can learn from this thread is that perception is everything!!

@clipclop5 I find the total opposite to you. I find NI grim and like stepping back in time. The charity shops, dirty pavements, British flags and painted flagstones, tired looking massive Sainsbury’s and derelict buildings not to mention the awful quality roads. When my DH went there for the first time (he’s from cork) he couldn’t get over the difference crossing the border makes. I’ve never heard the north being described as more modern than the south. Look at your track record on gay rights... Arlene wanting to chain up the playgrounds on a Sunday, orange marches, it’s insane!!

So again like I say perception is everything!

@Shedbuilder fwiw my mother is English, lived here 40 years now never had an issue integrating and never once my whole childhood did I hear a anti English slur passed her or my families way and this was in rural rural Ireland and this was 40 years ago.

I’ve plenty of gay friends and never heard them worry about living in Ireland (although I’m in Dublin which I would highly recommend even though more expensive I love it and much more stuff to do and more diverse population). You only have to look at the overwhelming support for gay marriage vote here - even my 80 year old granny voted in favour although obviously you will get bigots everywhere. I think Ireland is a lot less toxic than the UK and that your view of it depends on your social circle - mine are all university educated and a lot more progressive and liberal.

Overall though there is no point moving here with a bad attitude - it doesn’t surprise me that @SarahAndQuack the person who says they would never move to Ireland and commutes from the Uk is the one who has had a bad experience.

Also the person who said constant electricity outages 😂😂😂 I can count how many we had on one hand and I grew up in seriously rural Ireland on a farm - I remember as they were all such big events getting out the gas stove etc.

I think the biggest thing to consider is are you planning to have kids. If not then if you move to Ireland live in Dublin. If so Ireland has a much better education system than the UK. However I would also consider somewhere in Europe that is sunnier better weather. I lived in Germany and if I was to live anywhere else it would be there. You could get lessons for the language and most have good English anyway.

@dance, you've got it the wrong way around.

I was put off the idea of moving by the experience of working there.

I’m surprised at that @sarahandquack you must have gotten very unlucky with your workplace and where you go out. I’ve never heard similar from any of the gay couples I know and they’re not all Irish.

Like I said though experience and perception is everything. For me the UK is one place I’ve never considered moving based on my experiences there. Whereas for you it’s the other way around.

You do realise that's a form of homophobic gaslighting, right?

'You must have been very unlucky'.

Oh yes, of course, couldn't possibly be homophobia in the culture, could there?

I've heard the same from plenty of other gay people, FWIW. They probably don't talk to you about it if your first response is to tell them they're 'unlucky' or to suggest it must be their 'bad attitude' at fault.

@mathanxiety

To go back to your post about Jewish child refugees- you are correct. For some reason I thought that this happened before the war, but had misunderstood the timeline.

Thanks for the clarification.

I also hadn’t know about conversion to Catholicism, but in hindsight that doesn’t surprise me.

OP the thread does come across as a little baity towards Irish people, probably why people have responded a bit coolly.

It's pretty disheartening reading through some posts here, there actually does seem to be a lot of anti-irishness on this forum if we're throwing stones at each other.

@mathanxiety I'm from and live in Ireland but lived in London for a couple years when I was younger, I definitely experienced more street harassment in London then I ever did here.

This is a great poem by a popular Irish singer/songwriter. It talks about how hypocritical it is for Irish people to be racist to immigrants, when we have a similar story.

@SarahAndQuack but I do think you’ve been unlucky. I’ve now RTFT and you seem to work in a horribly homophobic company. My own large Dublin company everyone wears rainbow lanyards as a signal of acceptance toward LGBTQ+ , parents and carers network hold information events on coming out, there are videos on the website, a group who partake in gay pride parade. Several of my colleagues are gay and no one has even mistakenly thought they had a husband/wife when it was the opposite. It sounds like you need to look for a new job rather than staying put in what is clearly a homophobic old fashioned workplace - all workplaces in Dublin are not like this which is what you are implying. We also did the great place to work annonymous survey and got 95% on question ‘I feel included here regardless of my race/sexuality’. In case you think that’s just my perception.

Re sexual harassment and cat calling - I’ve had more of that on holidays to the Uk than in Ireland. Once in London I was terrified I was going to be pulled into a car. I don’t go round telling people the Uk is a hotbed of sexual harrassment.

Where is your office located? Is it in a bad part of the city? Same with where you socialise? I wouldn’t go near temple bar. Ranelagh is much nicer or baggot street.

I understand you think I've been unlucky. But you think it's to do with having a 'bad attitude'.

I don't see how you think this doesn't just reinforce the idea that Ireland is homophobic? Telling someone 1) homophobic encounters are due to their 'bad attitude' and 2) that they're atypical because that person is 'unlucky' is really pretty homophobic. Rainbow lanyards don't make up for that.

You sound as if you're trying to be kind and I do appreciate that, but ... please try to think about how you might sound when you say it's someone's bad attitude that makes them experience homophobia. I was actually delighted to get my job and thrilled about the idea of working where I'm working. They do all the rainbow frills and Pride stuff too, and it's all style over substance.

Btw, I'm a bit nervous of giving identifying info (probably being paranoid), but FWIW the company is actually a university. I have usually found universities to be reasonably LGBT-friendly, and maybe part of the problem was that it was such a culture shock to find one that doesn't feel that way.

@0v9c99f9g9d939d9f9g9h8h, what specific generalisations are you disagreeing with?

It doesn't matter that someone would have a worse time in Cairo or London or anywhere else. The negative experiences of women, girls, non-white people and individuals who are gay in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland matter. The street harassment of women and girls is well documented. What interest would anyone be serving by denying it?

@Dancethereupontheshore
We also did the great place to work annonymous survey and got 95% on question ‘I feel included here regardless of my race/sexuality’
That means that 5% don't feel included. Who were these people?
Is it possible that 95% of respondents were straight and white?
The telling figure would be the percentage of non-white or gay respondents who felt included.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/author-gavin-mccrea-victim-of-homophobic-attack-in-dublin-1.4170368
"Author Gavin McCrea victim of homophobic attack in Dublin"
A study by Columbia University, New York and the charity Belong To last year which found that 73 per cent of the 800 Irish LGTBI students surveyed felt unsafe in school, 77 per cent suffer verbal harassment and 11 per cent physical attacks.
McCrea suffered bullying as a child and left Ireland.

As Dancethereupontheshore implies, there are parts of Dublin that are not as cool as others. It's possible that the deniers and minimisers only frequent certain parts of the city and suburbs.
...your view of it depends on your social circle - mine are all university educated and a lot more progressive and liberal.
There are many areas of Dublin where people are not university educated, progressive, or liberal, and where ideals of masculinity veer toward the toxic.

@SarahAndQuack I'm very sorry to hear about the homophobia you've experienced but I believe you entirely.

I also work in a Dublin university and I've been a bystander to many homophobic comments (I'm straight). I called one group out who were slagging a colleague because they thought she was a lesbian and they just thought I was no craic for going along with it. Assholes.