AIBU by not being convinced about moving to Ireland?

[Shedbuilder]

My partner's grandparents were born in Ireland and so she's been able to obtain an Irish passport. I'm English. We're very pro-EU and horrified by Brexit and we hate the current government and direction the UK is taking. We're wondering about putting our money where our mouths are and moving to Ireland. Our parents are all dead, we don't have children, we're on good terms, but not particularly close, to our siblings and their families. We'd plan to come back and visit friends and family in the UK several times a year and we've factored in the cost of doing that.

It would suit my partner well. She's very gregarious, she has the blarney and she also has some family over there already. I wouldn't know anyone. I also worry about what it would be like to be noticeably English in Ireland. I'm not at all posh but I sound a bit Radio 4.

I'm concerned that my partner has some pretty romantic ideas about Ireland. She expects it to be so much better than England. She's just been ranting at the far righters Nazi-saluting at the cenotaph and saying proudly that it wouldn't happen in Ireland. I made the mistake of replying no, it wouldn't happen in Ireland because Ireland stayed neutral during WW2 and then for years persecuted and scapegoated the Irish men and women who volunteered to fight Hitler. That didn't go down well.

The area we would be looking at is probably somewhere within a five-mile radius of Enniscorthy and within relatively easy reach of Wexford and Dublin. Also close to the Rosslare ferry and the coast. The property in that area seems excellent value for money: currently looking at a spacious 4-year-old four-bedroom house on an acre, well away from neighbours, and with a separate double garage and a barn for under £300,000.

We know we'll have to have private medical insurance. We know that we'll have a lot of learning to do and that the chances are I'll be an outsider for the rest of my life. As a lesbian I'm used to that. I'm also aware that Ireland has its own issues around transgender and women's rights, but they seem no worse than they are here.

So tell me, would you move to Ireland if you could?

@Narrows - I didn't claim that street harassment of women in Ireland is any different or any more severe than anywhere else.

This thread is about Ireland so Ireland is the only country I referred to. I could easily say the same of any other country I have visited or lived in, but that's not the topic of the thread.

I am trying to counter the claims that Ireland is massively progressive - 'we even have a gay Taoiseach and his ratings are through the roof' - and that therefore women are going to have a different experience in Ireland than they would elsewhere.

Yes, things have changed a lot. However, some things remain the same, as evidenced by two recent rape trials - Ulster rugby players and the 'thong = consent' trial in Cork. We women think we're doing great until reality hits us straight between the eyes.

I’ve heard many non Irish here comment on how independent Irish women are.
@LaurieMarlow, yes, Irish women are independent and also articulate, and in general well-educated thanks to a decent education system. That doesn't rule out the existence of underlying assumptions held by men.

@sammylady37, you are bound to read a lot of threads and comments on MN about women being hassled on the street in the UK because MN's membership is primarily composed of British women living in the UK, and therefore threads on MN generally reflect British women's experiences, not the experience of women living in Dublin, Galway, Limerick, etc. It doesn't mean street harassment isn't a thing in Ireland.

I find Irish women are far more outspoken than English women. So I don't identify with mathanxiety's statement either.
Mathanxiety - the Ulster rugby trial was in Northern Ireland.

The default assumption about women in Ireland is that they are all available to men or even fair game for men. Scratch the surface and there it is (comment by me)

For Irish people generally, I wouldn’t ever have thought ‘women were available to all men’.
@Sittingontheveranda
OK, here goes...

For starters, I absolutely did not say 'women are available to all men'.

Secondly, what I did say, and it was in relation to the fact that the OP and her partner are lesbians, was that there is an assumption that women are all available to men, i.e. straight, and the idea that some are lesbians is one that doesn't occur to many.

(Yes, lesbians tend to be very marginalalised everywhere, and lesbian awareness is in a very undeveloped state elsewhere too, in case anyone wants to hop on that.)

The assumption that women out socialising will welcome male flirting and the male gaze or even outright male appraisal is the same in Ireland as it is elsewhere. Having a gay Taoiseach doesn't mean Ireland is a great place to be a lesbian.

@GimmeAy read what I actually said and not the blatantly misquoted and misunderstood retelling of what I posted.

Yes the rugby rape case was in NI.
The Cork rape trial was in Ireland.

I do not think there is a huge difference between the conservatism of NI and the conservatism of Ireland when it comes to women and the massive and (to me) inexplicable difficulty so many have with the idea of consent in relation to sex. In NI the conservatism is more out in the open. In Ireland it is beneath the surface.

My two good friends (both previously in straight relationships) came out as lesbian in Ireland about 16 years ago. I was certainly supportive, there were a few whispers (mainly because they had previously been straight), but I'm not aware of any hate towards them - one English - one Kiwi - they are now married and live in NZ.

@mathanxiety

you are bound to read a lot of threads and comments on MN about women being hassled on the street in the UK because MN's membership is primarily composed of British women living in the UK, and therefore threads on MN generally reflect British women's experiences, not the experience of women living in Dublin, Galway, Limerick, etc. It doesn't mean street harassment isn't a thing in Ireland

Sigh. Yes, I know MN’s membership is mostly British, and therefore the threads and posts reflect the experiences of mostly British women. That was actually my point- that they experience lots of harassment and entitlement from men. In fact, they do so more frequently than Irish women I know. I have only read two threads on a large Irish chat forum about the same topic, and I’ve been on that forum since 2007, whereas I’ve only been on MN since 2016. But as I acknowledged in my post, there is a degree of that in Ireland, no doubt, but it’s certainly not the “default assumption” that women are all available/fair game to men. Your post was making it sound like it was an accepted phenomenon in Ireland about which you needed to warn the OP.

In my 37 years in Ireland, I was never sexually assaulted. In my 5 years in London, I've been sexually assaulted twice.

How long is it since you've actually lived in Ireland mathanxiety?

OP - have you ever experienced any negative treatment in Bristol for being lesbian?

That said, I've infrequently come across young lesbian couples in London holding hands, but it's a long time since I've lived in Dublin and I don't think that I've ever witnessed PDAs among lesbians in Ireland. Perhaps it's different now. PDAs aren't generally tolerated much apart from in nightclubs I think - now that I think of it.
London has anonymity. Ireland? In a small town, you might quickly become the local gossip until something else tickles their fancy.

If you're friendly and open, maybe frequent the local pub, join a club or two, you might enjoy the lifestyle. But it's a serious consideration.

As a child growing up - there was a house about 500 metres down the road from my house, which we called The Dublin House (because the people who owned it were from Dublin). They were actually as I found out many years later, a gay couple, but as a child in the 80's, I didn't know such a thing existed. They were polite and friendly men who you'd occasionally see out walking their little dogs. They chose such an isolated place for privacy I presume - they only came on weekends or for short stays in the summer. They lived in Dublin during the week.

I was warning the OP to take claims that Ireland is a great place to be a lesbian with a huge pinch of salt, @sammylady37. Regardless of sexual orientation, women and girls in Ireland experience a high degree of sexual harassment.

Food for thought?
www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-has-highest-level-of-claimed-sexual-harassment-in-europe-909757.html

Ireland has the highest level of claimed sexual harassment in Europe - and is among the worst in the world.

That's according to a new survey of almost 31,000 people across 40 countries by market research and polling giant WIN International.

It found that 32% of women aged between 18 and 34 have experienced some form of sexual harassment in the last 12 months - the second highest out of all 40 countries surveyed and the worst in Europe. Only Mexico fared worse at 43%.

Ireland's rate of claimed sexual harassment among women in this age group was double that of the United Kingdom and more than twice the global average.

www.buzz.ie/news/dublin-harassment-302641

Glaringly obvious that no one’s spent any time in the trendy bits of Dublin of late. PDA among gay/lesbian couples are not unusual at all.

The OP isn't moving to Dublin though.

For all I know it’s exactly the same in Wexford. The country has changed very significantly.

Glaringly obvious that no one’s spent any time in the trendy bits of Dublin of late. PDA among gay/lesbian couples are not unusual at all.

I have. I work in Dublin. I regularly walk through Temple Bar between 7 and 11pm (or did, before all of this). Yes, I've seen gay/lesbian couples outside clubs.

I've also seen and heard a lot of homophobia.

I will say, the one way in which the UK and Ireland are identical, is that in both, everyone will fall over their feet to tell you homophobic comments are impossible and never happened. Funny that.

The OP will surely be spending time in Dublin all the same, @GimmeAy. It has a lot going for it despite problems with harassment.

Dublin absolutely does have a lot going for it.

I think many things about it are lovely, and I am currently missing those things.

@Quarantimespringclean

think you need to rethink your opinions about Irish attitudes towards men who fought in the English Army during the war

Oh the irony of telling anyone they need to rethink their attitude, I suggest you rethink yours... or don't the 1000s of Scots soldiers who fought count, don't recall them ever fighting in an English army but a BRITISH one.

@mathanxiety, with respect, haven't you lived in the US for a significant number of years?

Why yes I have, Narrows.

But I visit, and I have a huge number of family members, school and college friends, and children of the above all living there and also traveling back and forth, to discuss Ireland and my native Dublin with. It's not like the old days when people sent letters back and forth from abroad and the post took six weeks.

OP you’ve already had many and varied opinions but as I’m from near enniscorthy I’ll add mine.

Things have changed hugely in the last 20 years and for the better. It is more progressive and tolerant than ever.
But there are still issues for people who are gay / non irish.

My cousin is an openly gay man with a thriving business & well liked. He is still called names in the local pub and won’t walk in certain places by himself or after dark. The number of married men who have come out to him about their shame at staying in the closet is horrifying.
My cousin and her wife have had extremely offensive remarks made to them about needing a man to sort them out.
This is a minority of people but those claiming Ireland is a gay utopia are wrong, especially outside of Dublin.

Non irish people are welcomed and usually integrate well into the community. But they will be gossiped about and always marked out as ‘not from here’ by the locals, regardless of how long they live there.

A couple of the posters mentioned earlier in the thread that irish people don’t like ‘notions’ and are quite proud of that. This is shorthand for a mean girls attitude where anyone daring to be different is cut down to size. Conformity is key.

My irish born friend moved back with her English born partner who has irish parents. He, like your partner, spent a lot of time there during holidays, has a lot of family there and considered himself irish. He was not accepted as such. His romantic views about coming home were shattered very harshly. Irish people can react very badly (and I admit it’s still my instinct to do the same) when someone with an English accent calls themselves irish or makes any claim to the culture. Understandable if you know the history but hurtful to be on the receiving end.
They moved back to England after a couple of years.

Racism is a huge issue in Ireland. As bad as the U.K. I would say.

The treatment of asylum seekers is a national disgrace.

Racism, especially the casual sort, towards travellers is widely accepted.

But it is getting better and the political engagement and activism is inspiring. It has come a long, long way in a short space of time.

I think moving might be a bigger mistake for your partner - her experience on holiday is not the same as living there day to day.
If you live rurally people won’t just drop by to see you and won’t welcome you unannounced on a busy Wednesday when they’ve been out at work all day, in the same way they might when you are on holiday. Her presence won’t be an event.

Winters are wet and cold and can be very grey and long if you don’t have a lot to occupy your free time with.

On a bright sunny day though, it’s one of the best places on earth. Especially when it’s strawberry season.

and it was in relation to the fact that the OP and her partner are lesbians, was that there is an assumption that women are all available to men, i.e. straight, and the idea that some are lesbians is one that doesn't occur to many.

Ah yes you are absolutely right. I misunderstood your meaning. Yes being gay is something that is not taken into account unless spelled out. I worked in a very big Irish company where there were quite a few gay people. They were not all flamboyant dressers or overly feminine or over masculine yet everybody knew their sexuality. While they didn’t hide it, I don’t recall there being comments about straight ppl’s sexuality at all.

I am nodding in agreement with that post, @Starsabove1.

Your observations of homophobia would be shared by a cousin of mine whose DS is gay, and my UK cousin who is not white would certainly agree with your comment on racism.

I've socialised with both of those individuals in Dublin and in the south east and the experience was a real eye opener for me, to my shame.