To think that Emma Watson is no feminist

[HermioneWeasley]

So after JKR published her incredibly powerful essay and disclosed being a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual violence, Emma decides to tweet that trans women are women. Emma doesn’t condemn the misogynist abuse and threats of sexual violence that JKR has received, nor is she concerned about the facts JKR has shared of an over 4000% increase in girls being referred to gender clinics, or how autistic girls are disproportionately represented.

What is Emma’s “feminism” for exactly?

Doesn't mean they were happy as men, they might have just been trying to be "normal".
Philip Bunce ?

The fact that there are only small numbers and will only ever be small numbers is not a irrelevant to whether it impacts on equality for women.

It's entirely irrelevant when determining whether someone is a woman or not. As for impact on equality, one woman being harmed or losing out on an opportunity or award that was created for women, in order to instead support and validate a male's entirely subjective gender identity is one too many for me, because it sure as hell impacted that woman. She made that sacrifice with no choice in the matter. Absolutely put in place appropriate protections and schemes for trans people, but that shouldn't come at the expense of women who don't have equality themselves. It makes a mockery of the entire principle.

Rather than focus on who is and isn't on a short list and who can go in a female toilet it would be better to focus on achieving equality so that we didn't need a shortlist.

How exactly do you propose we achieve equality when even trans activists can't agree on a definition for the word woman between themselves, let alone one that is acceptable GC people too? How do we highlight inequality when we can't talk about issues that only affect females without offending someone with our language because it isn't 'inclusive' enough? Without a definition of woman that makes objective sense you cannot fight inequality on behalf of women.

I don't think someone who only identifies as a woman, IS a woman. So giving them the protections and opportunities that women have, IS undermining our rights and our fight for equality.

Women don't have "protections and opportunities" compared with men though. That's the whole point. You're not fighting for equality by focusing on someone wanting to be in the disadvantaged group. The main issue is that men and women aren't equal socially or economically.

@Quaagars

Transmen make the news for.... Having babies.

Now why could that be

Well..... have a think..
Trans men have the babies, so they'll be in the news for that - I'm sure if trans women are able to have babies in the future that will be in the news too

You rather missed the point I was making which is that generally, trans men are not noted for their achievements in any of the above arenas, but rather for their biological capacity for making babies. And that's it.

Because, for all of the handwringing, all of the 'but it's not as simple as you would think', all the 'what even is a woman anyway' philosophical pondering, ultimately everyone knows who are the males and who are the females.

Doesn't mean they were happy as men, they might have just been trying to be "normal"

Exactly, just because they were married to biological women/had families, doesn't mean they were happy as a man - I mean, people who are gay have been known to marry people of the opposite sex as they're trying to fit in/and/or haven't admitted it to themselves etc, so it's not a huge leap of the imagination to think that could be the case for trans people too.

I guess I mean protections and 'opportunities' (probably a poor choice of words) like single-sex spaces and services; and 'positive discrimination' especially in the workplace - all-women shortlists for example.

I don't think an all-women shortlist should have a trans woman on it, much like I don't think a women's refuge should have to admit trans women. I would heartily support dedicated spaces & services etc for trans people, especially when it comes to healthcare and the like. But don't impinge on women's spaces.

Women don't have "protections and opportunities" compared with men though. That's the whole point.

Protections and opportunities that put women above men, obviously not. But that attempt to equalise the playing field? Quotas, mandatory reporting on salary gap, all women short lists, separate categories for awards/sports, separate spaces. They shouldn't be needed to protect the dignity and rights of women, but they're what we've managed to get so far. The fact they aren't perfect or that the world isn't an equal utopia yet isn't a reason to throw away the results feminists that have gone before have already achieved.

Yep.
And personally I do think it weakens the ground on which we stand, if we accept that people who 'feel' like women also deserve those protections etc, if we are unable to define exactly what 'feeling like a woman' means, how this doesn't reinforce gender stereotyping, and why being discriminated against for being trans (which I fully agree does happen) should be addressed by pooling it together with sex discrimination against women.

The fact they aren't perfect or that the world isn't an equal utopia yet isn't a reason to throw away the results feminists that have gone before have already achieved.

By focusing on transgender people who will have little impact on the figures rather than focusing on the figures themselves you are throwing it away.

@GrolliffetheDragon

Can I ask your opinion of gender non-conforming transwomen using women's toilets etc. Somebody who looks to all intents and purposes male - male clothes, haircut, possibly a beard/facial hair? Would you challenge someone in the ladies loos who looked like that? Would you find another toilet? Report it to someone?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a gender non conforming trans woman to use a public toilet?

Not all gender non confirming trans women present as you have described. Many have long hair and many wear make up and, as a result, have been harassed, verbally abused, spat on and physically abused while using male toilets. Many dread using the toilet. Where are their safe spaces? Trans women are also at risk.

Look, plenty of men assault women - they don't need the excuse of pretending to be women in order to do it!

Trans women (gender non conforming or otherwise) are not a threat to you.

[quote Vivi0]@bellinisurge

And? I’m not seeing your point.

Are you saying that because of Karen White all trans women are to be considered predators?

In the same way that gay men were once considered paedophiles?

It is apparent that many of you do not know any trans women. Your view of them is distorted.

Luckily, young people do not see trans women as the threat many of you do, so you can stop with all the “teenage girls being afraid to use the bathroom on their period” comments. @PheasantPlucker1 was spot on in saying:

I disagree more young people believe TWAW

In my DC school and the one I work in there seems to be a view that gender is "old fashioned" created by the oldies and that people should be allowed to wear what they want, not stick strictly to gender stereotypes

This is my experience too.

Trans women are not predators.

They are no threat to you.

If you continue to see them as such, perhaps you are transphobic.[/quote]
Karen White isn't a transwoman. He is a predatory male who posed as a transwoman to gain access to vulnerable women and attack them.

Transwomen are absolutely not the problem. I'm not worried about transwomen. I'm worried about a change in rules that defines a woman as literally anyone who says they are, with no medical oversight or due process. Which is exactly the situation Karen White abused.

The issue isn't transwomen. The issue is a potential loss of protections against predatory men who pose as transwomen, posing a threat to trans people as well.

Karen White doesn't prove that transwomen are dangerous; he isn't one. He proves that the rules being championed by many trans activists and their supporters put women at serious risk from predatory men.

Doesn't the evidence say that transwomen and men have similar behaviour when it comes to sexual offences?

@Vivi0
What is "Gender Conforming" ?
What is the definition of a man ?

If Transwomen feel unsafe in male toilets then surely answer is to deal with male violence
not trash the safe spaces of women ?

Karen White doesn't prove that transwomen are dangerous; he isn't one.

He's as much a transwoman as anyone is, by current definition.

Transwomen are absolutely not the problem. I'm not worried about transwomen. I'm worried about a change in rules that defines a woman as literally anyone who says they are, with no medical oversight or due process

OK, worried about self ID - fair enough.
Yours is a more moderate view on here if you aren't worried about trans women, as I've seen posters on MN saying they're not happy with ANY trans women in the toilets, regardless of whether they've had surgery or not. none are welcome, and that's where it gets transphobic

@ShebaShimmyShake

Karen White isn't a transwoman. He is a predatory male who posed as a transwoman to gain access to vulnerable women and attack them

I didn’t say that Karen White was a trans woman.

It was reported a while back that Karen White was undergoing gender reassignment surgery, but I don’t know how true that is - therefore I did not refer to Karen White as a trans woman.

Karen White doesn't prove that transwomen are dangerous; he isn't one. He proves that the rules being championed by many trans activists and their supporters put women at serious risk from predatory men

I did however say that plenty of men assault women. They don't need the excuse of pretending to be women to do it.

@Vivi0
If Karen White is not a Trans Woman
then what is he?
and what is a transwoman?
and what is a man?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a gender non conforming trans woman to use a public toilet?

More difficult than someone in a wheelchair ?

@SerendipityJane

Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a gender non conforming trans woman to use a public toilet?

More difficult than someone in a wheelchair ?

It’s not a competition, is it?

@MaxNormal

Karen White doesn't prove that transwomen are dangerous; he isn't one.

He's as much a transwoman as anyone is, by current definition.

THAT'S the problem. Self ID.

I must have shared toilets and changing rooms with countless transwomen over the years without ever knowing it. Never had a single problem. Transwomen, real transwomen, are no more a threat than anyone else. But when we allow all women's spaces and services to open to any male bodied person who merely says they're female, well Houston, we have a huge Karen White shaped problem.

I don't believe any predatory man will go to the trouble of living as a woman for two years, taking hormones, possibly getting surgery and basically making a serious commitment to get a GRC purely to assault women. As a protection for everyone, the current rules seem to work as well as can be expected. But when it literally becomes "just say you're a woman and you get access to women's prisons, refuges and so on...well Christ, of course that's open to abuse.

I just want some safeguards in place. Medical oversight and some commitment to prove this is truly who you are. It seems to have offered enough protection up to now.

I can't say TRAs who tell Rowling to suck their dicks or die in a grease fire are helping the cause, either. It's not very feminine discourse.

Sheba
Philip Bunce does not have a GRC - but he won businessWOMAN of the year

THe number of GRCs issued is tiny
Self ID is already with us

It’s not a competition, is it?

It sodding well is when the very first spaces to disappear to mixed changing rooms and facilities are the disabled ones.

transperson can't find an "appropriate" facility, they can still physically use a regular one.

Disabled person can't use a disabled facility then they can shit and/or piss themselves outside the regular loos.

All a bit academic of late, with all toilets being closed anyway.

@SerendipityJane

With respect, that is a completely separate issue.

No trans person should be grateful that they have a toilet to use when they are harassed, spat on or verbally or physically abused using that toilet.

You asked about predators taking advantage of self ID and called JKR a transphobe for identifying this problem. I named someone who had done this very thing. Karen White.
I'm not a fucking idiot. I don't believe transwoman = predator. As much as you'd like to pretend that's what I believe.
Predators use loopholes to access their victims. And groom well meaning people into facilitating it. Self ID creates a loophole.

No trans person should be grateful that they have a toilet to use when they are harassed, spat on or verbally or physically abused using that toilet.
Disabled people get abused
women get abused
children get abused
trans people get abused

trashing the rights of women will not make that change
MEN HAVE TO CHANGE THEIR ATTITUDES

What IS a man by the way ?