To think that Emma Watson is no feminist

[HermioneWeasley]

So after JKR published her incredibly powerful essay and disclosed being a survivor of domestic abuse and sexual violence, Emma decides to tweet that trans women are women. Emma doesn’t condemn the misogynist abuse and threats of sexual violence that JKR has received, nor is she concerned about the facts JKR has shared of an over 4000% increase in girls being referred to gender clinics, or how autistic girls are disproportionately represented.

What is Emma’s “feminism” for exactly?

@KingFredsTache

Right, come on then, on what basis are transwomen women? What makes them women? At what objective point, upon which policy and law can be made, do they go from 'man' to 'woman'?

I'll wait......

I asked that earlier. Still waiting for an answer.

If you don’t define women by biological sex how do you define them?

If DH and I sit next to each other. We are both wearing jeans and a plan blue tee shirt. Neither of us is wearing make up or jewellery. How do you decide which of us is the DH and which is the DW?

@bellinisurge

And? I’m not seeing your point.

Are you saying that because of Karen White all trans women are to be considered predators?

In the same way that gay men were once considered paedophiles?

It is apparent that many of you do not know any trans women. Your view of them is distorted.

Luckily, young people do not see trans women as the threat many of you do, so you can stop with all the “teenage girls being afraid to use the bathroom on their period” comments. @PheasantPlucker1 was spot on in saying:

I disagree more young people believe TWAW

In my DC school and the one I work in there seems to be a view that gender is "old fashioned" created by the oldies and that people should be allowed to wear what they want, not stick strictly to gender stereotypes

This is my experience too.

Trans women are not predators.

They are no threat to you.

If you continue to see them as such, perhaps you are transphobic.

In the sense that most trans people say they have felt that way ever since I can remember? You don’t often hear them say they were a perfectly happy as a boy until x happened.
Funnily quite a few of the high profile Transwomen seemed happy to marry real women and father multiple children before deciding to dress differently
Jan Morris
Caitlin Jenner
Philip / Pips Bunce depending which day of the week it is
and many more

I disagree because only a very small percentage of people are trans women and they would benefit more from male privilege by staying as a man rather than becoming a trans-woman. It doesn't matter if they've been put on the shortlist they still will be at a disadvantage compared with men

Unless they transitioned after being successful and then got to claim female 'firsts' retrospectively. Does anyone seriously believe the Matrix films are the first trilogy directed by a woman, even though the Wachowski's at the time were, presumably, benefitting from male privilege no matter how they felt inside?

The point of celebrating female firsts is that it's generally considered that women will have had to work harder and overcome more barriers than men. Why should people who never faced those barriers be able to swoop in and gain the accolade?

I don't give a shit how people want to live their lives (as long as they're not hurting others), I'll call you whatever name you choose, use your pronouns of choice to the best of my ability. You can wear what you like, not an issue for me. Apparently this makes me transphobic, because anything other than believing that TWAW exactly the same as me appears to be unacceptable and I don't believe that.

@Vivi0

Can I ask your opinion of gender non-conforming transwomen using women's toilets etc. Somebody who looks to all intents and purposes male - male clothes, haircut, possibly a beard/facial hair? Would you challenge someone in the ladies loos who looked like that? Would you find another toilet? Report it to someone?

Just curious, because of the push to recognise that you can't know someones gender by looking at them, and the fact that questioning someone is considered transphobic.

It's said that if anyone is behaving inappropriately it can be reported, but until fairly recently any male appearing person who was making no attempt to look like a woman would have been considered to be behaving inappropriately just by being in there, so it appears that we're being expected to drasticly raise the bar on what is inappropriate. This is not something I'm comfortable with for various reasons.

Not all men are rapists
but all rapists are men

those born with a Y chromosome are men
if they still have the genitalia they were born with, they are capable of committing rape

therefore should not be allowed into protected Women's spaces

its not tricky

Are you saying that because of Karen White all trans women are to be considered predators?

No. In the same way that I don't consider all men to be predators because of, say, John Worboys. Doesn't mean all men should be allowed in women's safe spaces though.

My DH isn't a predator, he is a wonderful man who is in no way a threat to women - should he be allowed in women's spaces if he wants to? Why not?

At what point does a male who identifies as a woman come out of the high risk category of 'male' and go into the low risk category of 'female'? At what point, upon which policy and law can be made, does that actually happen?

As far as I’m concerned if you are born with a penis you are male and when adult you will be a man. I wholeheartedly defend your right to wear whatever you wish, your right to call yourself any name you choose, your right to live peacefully without violence or harassment, your right to sleep with any consenting adult of your choosing without fear of being judged but the simple fact is you are not and never will be female or a woman.
I genuinely do not understand how it is considered transphobic to state the simple truth

Trans women are not predators.

Can you define 'trans women' here please? Is it 'any male who identifies as female' or is it something else?

Same old arguments. Yawn.

Saying male bodied people pose a threat to women is not transphobic. We aren't saying each and every TW poses a threat but that it is impossible to distinguish a TW from a predator when anyone claiming to be a woman is automatically one despite how they present or behave. We need to be able to define what a woman is in law to protect women and girls and their rights.

It's such a dishonest twisting of the argument to say anyone thinks all TW are predators.

We have a lot of safeguarding practices in place to protect children. It's not because we believe everyone who wants to work with children is a paedophile but instead to try and keep those who are out.

We need to be able to define what a woman is in law
Make them define what a MAN is first
much more amusing

@ListeningQuietly

We need to be able to define what a woman is in law Make them define what a MAN is first much more amusing

Totally agree

It's interesting how all the arguments focus on MTF and not FTM, is it just a problem with men you have deep down?

Not all men are rapists
but all rapists are men

The UK isn't the centre of the world you know and in other countries with different legal definitions women certainly do commit rape.
www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

"What's most important is that young people increasingly agree with progressive views that trans women are women, so Mumsnet in 25 years time will probably be a very different place."

And hopefully with that it will be kinder and more tolerant of people who don't fit the mould you want them to.

maybe we need "artificial women". After all, we're told that "artificial intelligence" is running the world ...

It's interesting how all the arguments focus on MTF and not FTM, is it just a problem with men you have deep down?

At the risk of being accused of weaponising my trauma, there are reasons why I don't want men in women only spaces.

Also it's the MTF who shout loudest. Can't think why that might be...

It's interesting how all the arguments focus on MTF and not FTM, is it just a problem with men you have deep down?

Well the thought experiment of a pre (or non) op FTM person entering the male toilets and sexually assaulting those within falls down quite quickly. All of the trans lobby frothing is intended to obscure or ignore the fundamental asymmetry between men and women formerly known to science as sexual dimorphism.

It's interesting how all the arguments focus on MTF and not FTM, is it just a problem with men you have deep down?

What's also interesting is that transwomen make the news for their achievements in business, entertainment, activism, sports, politics, journalism and indeed for their crimes.

Transmen make the news for.... Having babies.

Now why could that be?

@KilljoysDutch

The problem is that defining women by gender based characteristics is forcing women into a mould they don’t want to be in and have been fighting to get out of for years. I am not a woman because of make up or dresses or pink or any other stereotype. Who is being kind to me when those sorts of stereotypes are being reimposed?
I would like to see the moulds smashed not reinforce by the concepts that men who like make up and dresses are really females and women who spend their time in overalls fixing cars are really men.

Transmen make the news for.... Having babies.

Now why could that be

Well..... have a think..
Trans men have the babies, so they'll be in the news for that - I'm sure if trans women are able to have babies in the future that will be in the news too

Again, woman doesn't mean 'not men'. The fact there are small numbers is completely irrelevant. Would your mind change if suddenly there was a significant increase? Where's the cut off?

The fact that there are only small numbers and will only ever be small numbers is not a irrelevant to whether it impacts on equality for women.

Disadvantage in comparison to heterosexual white men is not a tick box you complete in order to become a woman. The fact that transwomen would benefit from male privilege if they remained as 'men' societally doesn't mean they are women or entitled to women's spaces any more than gay men should be allowed in to protect them from homophobia as the disadvantages they face.

I didn't say it was a tick box you complete in order to become a woman. My point is no one is going be trans so that they can be on a shortlist and as the numbers are so few it wouldn't make a difference if someone did .It's a minor issue and is a big distraction from the main issue which is that men and women are not equal in this country. Rather than focus on who is and isn't on a short list and who can go in a female toilet it would be better to focus on achieving equality so that we didn't need a shortlist.

But we focus on women because we are disadvantaged because of our SEX not our personal identity.
So undermining/ignoring/negating the issue of sex when we are talking about equality and discrimination is harmful.

I don't think someone who only identifies as a woman, IS a woman. So giving them the protections and opportunities that women have, IS undermining our rights and our fight for equality.

And yes, the numbers are irrelevant.

Appointing a male person, a straight, white male at that, in a political position of power representing women is simply wrong.
But we're not permitted to raise our voices against that, because if we do we are told we are wrong, cruel, hateful and should be silent.
Which makes me pretty angry, and I can't see it any other way than it reinforces oppression of women.

@ListeningQuietly

In the sense that most trans people say they have felt that way ever since I can remember? You don’t often hear them say they were a perfectly happy as a boy until x happened. Funnily quite a few of the high profile Transwomen seemed happy to marry real women and father multiple children before deciding to dress differently Jan Morris Caitlin Jenner Philip / Pips Bunce depending which day of the week it is and many more

Doesn't mean they were happy as men, they might have just been trying to be "normal".

I agree that in 25 years time mumsnet will be very different - it will be filled with posts from women who have realised just how many of the freedoms which women gave their lives to achieve they have given away and are now wondering where to start to get them back.