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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
TwilightPeace · 13/06/2020 08:23

You are creating a victim status where a person born with less is given free reign to do what they want - because life is not fair? That really is the road to ruin. For everyone - the person born with less too!

I didn’t say anyone should have free reign. I think that disadvantaged communities should be massively invested in. Give those people opportunities and hope. Break the cycle of poverty, gangs etc. Policing doesn’t help, it’s just a sticking plaster. Jail doesn’t help, people just get back out and back into the same life they lived before. Put people in cages and they will act like animals.
Yes obviously we need SOME police and jail. But increasing either of those things without also directing money to the root of the problem is just madness.
Look at the bigger picture.

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 08:33

@TwilightPeace

You are creating a victim status where a person born with less is given free reign to do what they want - because life is not fair? That really is the road to ruin. For everyone - the person born with less too!

I didn’t say anyone should have free reign. I think that disadvantaged communities should be massively invested in. Give those people opportunities and hope. Break the cycle of poverty, gangs etc. Policing doesn’t help, it’s just a sticking plaster. Jail doesn’t help, people just get back out and back into the same life they lived before. Put people in cages and they will act like animals.
Yes obviously we need SOME police and jail. But increasing either of those things without also directing money to the root of the problem is just madness.
Look at the bigger picture.

The 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can invest in policing AND developing communities, however I think you did say that you can't blame people for being criminal because of where they come from. I just don't think that is good for those communities - they have to take responsibility for their own actions and we have to as a society have certain expectations that whatever your circumstances, you have a duty as a citizen to behave lawfully.

Pretty much every crime can be 'justified' by some external influence to some extent, but if we start allowing for those justifications to be in our retribution systems, the whole thing starts to crumble.

This is why people have had such a problem with the lawless vandalism of the statues.

midgebabe · 13/06/2020 08:37

Twilight peace , yes there needs to be a lot of money invested in our poorer communities , a raising of the most deprived areas from poverty

mungrymutt · 13/06/2020 08:47

Look at the bigger picture

Then we need to have a serious conversation about drugs. Drugs are responsible for a lot of gang activity & black on black crime. Not sure why it's considered harmless amongst the middle classes to dabble now & then.

TwilightPeace · 13/06/2020 08:55

You can invest in policing

Do you truly and honestly think that the police needs to be invested in even more than it already has? You think that will help anything?
Do you think policing and jail fixes anything? Or it is just a very expensive short-term solution to a long term problem?

they have to take responsibility for their own actions

They are born into dire poverty and hopelessness, through no fault of their own. We as a society have to HELP these communities.
People aren’t born criminals, it’s not in their DNA. It’s the environment that they grow up in. I think we have a duty to change and improve these environments, give the people the same chances that the privileged people in this country have.

And no, I don’t think people should do whatever the hell they want because they are born disadvantaged. But I can see why they dont give a damn.

BovaryX · 13/06/2020 08:59

I don't think creating a victim status helps anyone in the long run. It excuses and denies people the opportunities to take personal responsibility for their own actions

@hamstersarse

I think that is a really interesting point. I agree with your incisive analysis. Priti Patel, who has been subjected to racist abuse recently, says the idea everyone who is not white has identical political opinions is in itself racist. She is right. She also speaks about the UK as a country of freedom and opportunity for her parents, who were expelled from Uganda, and herself. This has produced such cognitive dissonance among those who want to present this in simplistic binary terms, that she is being called a cconut. The idea that someone who is not white can be a Conservative, want to protect the Cenotaph and comes from a family who saw the UK as a land of freedom and opportunity? That is inconceivable. So the conclusion is she doesn't have an Indian heritage at all.* Your eloquent posts on this subject have been a much needed perspective on what is becoming an increasingly reductive narrative.

^they are trying to silence me because I don't conform to their version of what it is to be an ethnic minority,' she seethes. 'They think they have a licence to speak for everybody from an ethnic minority community.'That is not the case. It is simply not the case. We're all different. We're all individuals. What they are saying is racist in itself, and I don't think we should lose sight of that.'
They' are the 31 MPs — 'Left of Left of the Labour Party more associated with Jeremy Corbyn,' says Priti — who have sent a vile letter accusing her of 'gaslighting' others from minority communities after she spoke about her own experience of racism earlier this week^.

Flaxmeadow · 13/06/2020 09:02

We are in a situation now where a Professor of Classics is demanding that all statues be torn down. Let that sink in

This is how bonkers academia has become, because presumably this would include statues of Julius Caesar, who captured hundreds of thousands of slaves in just one military campaign alone and Augustus, who raised money by taxation on slaves for building projects ?

I understand the Colston statue being moved to a museum, but where do the demands end?

Bluemoooon · 13/06/2020 09:24

I didn’t say anyone should have free reign. I think that disadvantaged communities should be massively invested in.
You mean the communities in London? not the north-east, I presume.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 13/06/2020 09:30

I see the fascists are still going strong with their narrative of false equivalency and victim hood. What scares you so much about equality of rights for POC, nobody is asking you to give up any of your rights, unless you think being a racist bigot is your right.

Just wait for all the wailing and nashing of teeth at being called racist bigots, if you feel that any of that was aimed at you its because youre probably a racist bigot.

A pp mentioned that racism in the UK is minimal, want to try and pop your head out of your ass bubble and take a look around, read some statistics.

Those calling the BLM a far left movement do you do that so that you can ignore the systemic racism experienced by POC in this country?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 13/06/2020 09:31

*gnashing

I should probably proof read before posting

TwilightPeace · 13/06/2020 09:31

You mean the communities in London? not the north-east, I presume.

All over the UK. Starting with the ones with the highest crime levels, gangs etc

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 09:35

@JustAnotherPoster00

I see the fascists are still going strong with their narrative of false equivalency and victim hood. What scares you so much about equality of rights for POC, nobody is asking you to give up any of your rights, unless you think being a racist bigot is your right.

Just wait for all the wailing and nashing of teeth at being called racist bigots, if you feel that any of that was aimed at you its because youre probably a racist bigot.

A pp mentioned that racism in the UK is minimal, want to try and pop your head out of your ass bubble and take a look around, read some statistics.

Those calling the BLM a far left movement do you do that so that you can ignore the systemic racism experienced by POC in this country?

Do you really think the things I have posted are racially bigoted?

I would be really really open to hearing as to why I have made you think that. They say people don't see their bias so I clearly am not seeing it, and I obviously need to hear the 'other side'

Bluemoooon · 13/06/2020 09:36

I'm just furious that historical acts are taken at modern day standards.
There's no disputing they were wrong, Slave trade definitely shouldn't be lauded, statues should be removed, but over history everything was crueller, unfair, despotic etc etc everywhere. Black Africans tribes annihalating other black african tribes. Germans gassing millions of Jews, most countries were racist against someone. Still are ime. The Protestant/Catholic problem is still rife in the UK.

To pick out white British as the sole evil people in history who should have their history blanked out is ridiculous and infuriating to me. This is outweighing any empathy in me.

OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 09:44

I'm furious at the amount of people suddenly claiming to care about History and Heritage so much when it has lacked funding and support for decades.

Oh and also people that don't do research

reading up etc and think that removing a couple of statues is wiping out 'their history'

JustAnotherPoster00 · 13/06/2020 09:45

Slave trade definitely shouldn't be lauded, statues should be removed, but over history everything was crueller, unfair, despotic etc etc everywhere. Black Africans tribes annihalating other black african tribes. Germans gassing millions of Jews, most countries were racist against someone.

They dont seem to have any statues to hitler, yet everyone remembers him Hmm

So why do we need to keep statues of centuries old slavers that no one knows who they are? For what purpose? Or is it just the fascistic need to look back at a history that we were once 'great' in no matter how false it is to persude yourselves that you can be that again if it wasnt for those pesky insert enemy here

SistemaAddict · 13/06/2020 09:45

@TwilightPeace if there was a huge pot of money to tackle deprivation in BAME communities, how would you spend it? It's a multifactorial issue and I don't know the answer. Throwing money at problems doesn't solve them ime, so maybe the money is being spent on the wrong things. What would you spend it on?

TwilightPeace · 13/06/2020 09:54

Throwing money at problems doesn't solve them ime, so maybe the money is being spent on the wrong things.

Um....economic investment does help to solve things. Eradicating poverty, more investment in education, better healthcare systems that focus on improving mental health, funding for clubs and groups that bring people together to improve their lives. Crazy concept I know.

Stop spending so much on the police and prison systems, locking people up for them to simply revert to their old ways upon release. Use the money to INVEST in communities that are disadvantaged instead of ploughing extra money into a system that has never worked and will never work.

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 09:55

@TwilightPeace

You can invest in policing

Do you truly and honestly think that the police needs to be invested in even more than it already has? You think that will help anything?
Do you think policing and jail fixes anything? Or it is just a very expensive short-term solution to a long term problem?

they have to take responsibility for their own actions

They are born into dire poverty and hopelessness, through no fault of their own. We as a society have to HELP these communities.
People aren’t born criminals, it’s not in their DNA. It’s the environment that they grow up in. I think we have a duty to change and improve these environments, give the people the same chances that the privileged people in this country have.

And no, I don’t think people should do whatever the hell they want because they are born disadvantaged. But I can see why they dont give a damn.

I think the point about policing came from your original comment that implied that BAME communities feel like that they are targeted more, yet in the same sentence you say 'can you blame them for committing more crime'?

That right there is how we are getting ourselves tied up in knots when it comes to policing. There is some underlying assumption in what you are saying that crime is 'more OK' if you are from a poor background, yet you also don't think police should 'target' them. But where else do you need policing other than where the crime is?!?!

That is not to say that the prison system works btw. That is an entirely different topic completely and not necessarily the police's fault. FWIW I don't think rehabilitation is great in this country, I have worked trying to get ex-offenders into employment and that is an example of discrimination right there - Timpsons are about the only employer who will positively employ. It leaves very little opportunity to get back on the straight and narrow.

And I have to discuss this 'They are born into dire poverty and hopelessness, through no fault of their own. We as a society have to HELP these communities."

I see where this is coming from, we all want to help, but one thing I know for sure is HELPING brings helplessness at the individual level. If a person never has to take responsibility for their actions, or help themselves, they never grow and rarely achieve. I think this is where the political divide comes in - the left want to HELP, the right see that as taking away individual power and want to ENABLE opportunity for people to do it themselves.

So when the right start talking about these issues you often hear "get off your arse" type statements. I don't think they are disregarding that a person's situation may be difficult, but they are also not saying that this person is incapable of doing it themselves - it is almost a compliment by saying they believe this person can 'get themselves out of it' - they have confidence in them.

The left are much more inclined to 'do it for them' and that to me seems to be also where the 'white saviour' type of criticism starts to appear. It feels good to HELP people, but actually when you look at all the research about achieveing positive behaviour change, HELP, is one of the worst ways to achieve it long term (and by HELP, I am implying 'doing it for them')

OrangeCinnamon · 13/06/2020 09:57

Let us all not forget that statues are.not the best representation of our history as a country at all....they are there for veneration. Most of them rich, white males.

In addition for those who are losing 'empathy' with the black people of this country because this matter is now highlighted, people from all races of all walks of life have been asking for a review ...just that a review mind...not just BLM movement. But don't let that get in the way of your empathy leaking away .

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 10:03

In addition for those who are losing 'empathy' with the black people of this country because this matter is now highlighted, people from all races of all walks of life have been asking for a review ...just that a review mind...not just BLM movement. But don't let that get in the way of your empathy leaking away

I think you are acting in bad faith here with what people have said about losing empathy. I read those statements about losing empathy to mean that people are upset about being constantly accused of being racist....just because of the colour of their skin

midgebabe · 13/06/2020 10:07

Does helping people really promote helplessness? Is it not that you see the helplessness, hopelessness that is some people's nature more easily when help is offered?

TwilightPeace · 13/06/2020 10:07

it is almost a compliment by saying they believe this person can 'get themselves out of it' - they have confidence in them.

😂😂😂 funniest thing I’ve read in ages!
Yes the right are so well known for expecting people to ‘get themselves out’ of the poverty they are born into, the systems that benefit nobody except the rich. Awk sure let’s just tell them to work a bit harder, it has worked a treat thus far.
The system was created to be this way, and that is the problem.

mungrymutt · 13/06/2020 10:13

the systems that benefit nobody except the rich

How do we tackle this?

mungrymutt · 13/06/2020 10:15

The system was created to be this way, and that is the problem.

Completely agree, society is sexist & racist & in many cases built on inequality. As a country our privileges & "dominance" relies of treating others by standards we wouldn't accept. So how do we change this?