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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
lucyintheskywithcz · 11/06/2020 15:02

I completely agree with you

IsadoraQuagmire · 11/06/2020 15:03

It's all making people FAR more racist

What? More racist than they were already? wow. I do think the focus needs to return to the fact that BAME people suffer from systemic racism in this country, and that needs to be dealt with still

Yes, much happier to be openly racist, if the comments I've heard recently are anything to go by.

Defenbaker · 11/06/2020 15:07

YANBU, and I agree with every word of your well written post OP. I'm sick of it all, and think the widespread protests are causing resentment from many people and have increased racial tension between the BAME and white communities.

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 15:09

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

President Obama called looters thugs and criminals in 2015. People like Chris Palmer, encouraging violent destruction because he thinks he's insulated from its consequences? Contemptible.

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 15:14

@hamstersarse

I think Thomas Sowell is superb. Thank you for posting that.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 11/06/2020 15:19

@BovaryX

Quite.

I know that I'm only one person but the protests I've seen where thousands of people, as one, have knelt on one knee, fist raised and in silence have been so much more powerful than watching a bunch of yobs throwing bikes at police horses.

It's nigh on impossible to criticise the quiet, solemn protests but it's very easy to criticise the looters and rioters and totally detract from the message.

BovaryX · 11/06/2020 15:24

Coleman Hughes is a great one to listen to - it really challenges the narrative

Hey @hamstersarse, this video is superb. What an interesting analysis and deconstruction by Coleman Hughes. Interesting, Douglas Murray cites Martin Luther King in the Spectator article. Thank you for posting this.

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 15:44

Coleman Hughes is so concise about this topic.

I would be interested how people can disagree with his narrative. He seems to make so much sense!

Givingup123456 · 11/06/2020 15:52

They are effectively removing puick history and the recognition of how far black lives have come. They should have out up plaques on the statues to educate others because to be honest I would have no idea who these people were in the statues and ignorantly probably wouldn't bother to try to find out. But if there was a plaque I would then be able to recognise and empathise with the struggles those before us had. Taking them down just surely burries the history even more and the struggle many black people have been through will not be as recognised?

shadypines · 11/06/2020 16:11

YANBU GinDaddy. Excellent post
Whilst I totally get the naming of a movement BLM I think sadly, constant labelling with the adjective of 'black' (or white or whatever)etc does absolutely nothing to help matters and this is one of the fundamental issues.
Sadly the media is extremely guilty of running stories or interviewing people and harping on about skin colour for no good reason as it's got absolutely nothing to do with the story.

A fairly recent example on BBC Breakfast they interviewed a female composer (the fact that females can actually do anything seems a constant source of wonder to the BBC but that's another issue..) who happened to have black skin. Now this had no relevance to the fact that she was a successful composer so why mention it? Instead of the main discussion being about the fantastic music she composed it turns into a discussion about her colour fgs! Why? And this is a lot of the problem if you ask me , the constant making an issue out of someone's colour leads to segregation and children growing up thinking 'hey, you're different to me' but rather than just accepting it like we accept a different eye colour, the colour of skin continues to be a big issue.

I welcome a world where people are seen as people, human beings where All Lives Matter as we're all on this planet together.

I would like everyone to listen to Sidney Poitier in 1967, his character puts it in a nutshell (he's getting grief from his dad because he and his white girlfriend who happens to have white skin, want to marry)

shadypines · 11/06/2020 16:13

it's at about 1.45 I should have pointed out

C130 · 11/06/2020 16:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

C130 · 11/06/2020 16:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ladywinesalot · 11/06/2020 16:52

@GinDaddyRedux You are white washed.

As a mixed race Black man you are probably fair in complexion which would have had a big positive impact on your race experiences.
And your Asian friend who found the character funny does not speak for all Asian people, but even though your Asian friend laughed would still have found it racist ignorant shit.

The statues should have come down along time ago.

Why won’t BLM help race relations?
Would you rather Blacks and Asians now the heads and continue to ‘Yes Masser’ the whites? Because it suits the white agenda.

How dare the Blacks and Asians stand and speak on the 100’s of years of white violence against them hey? Because staying quite is what keeps they whites happy.

What a joke

Ladywinesalot · 11/06/2020 16:52

*Bow their heads...

hamstersarse · 11/06/2020 17:41

@GinDaddyRedux

You clearly aren’t doing black properly 😉

QuentinWinters · 11/06/2020 19:57

The statues should have come down along time ago.
If the statues come down and the films and books are removed, it takes away opportunities to talk about what happened historically, why that's wrong, how it's had a lasting impact.

For me I have mixed feelings about the statues. Particularly in London, they project an air of the imperial patriarchy to me - lots of rich white Victorian men who made their money out of exploiting others. I'm not sad to see that gone.

But because it's so visual, it's very clear that system existed, not so long ago, and the ramifications are built into society today. Taking that away allows people to erase that history and from there it's a short hop to denying racism/sexism ever existed or exist now.

I'm worried about it. I think us white people are trying to avoid our collective guilt when we should be owning it. I like what Bristol are doing by putting the graffiti-ed statue in the museum because it enables that narrative view.

shadypines · 11/06/2020 20:10

Just to make myself clear ... I'm absolutely NOT saying people of all colours shouldn't stand up, with some sort of 'movement' and fight for injustice, of course not. I just feel there wouldn't be so much injustice still continuing in 2020 if the media stopped making an unecessary point about a person's skin colour.

Eg. I constantly see that a big hoo ha is made of any non white person gets a lead role in a film or TV series and the same goes for if a woman gets a lead part. I just think 'give me strength, what is this all about'. I watch lots of old films and TV and believe it or not women and non white people have had some fantastic roles in the past. Granted not so many as men but by god if we don't start seeing a person beyond colour, sex etc we'll never as a species come out of this mess.

Respect for everyone, regardless. It's not WHAT you are or WHO you are that matters, it's HOW you are.

Bluemoooon · 11/06/2020 20:15

The problems are

  1. Conflating our problems with aggressive armed US police behaviour.
  2. Making it all about slavery - which was a horrendous event over generations and the history books need to make that clear. But right now we should be improving lives for BAME people now and not concentrating on the past.
SistemaAddict · 11/06/2020 20:22

The past will always shape our future but it should not dictate it.

Justanotherlurker · 11/06/2020 20:28

1) Conflating our problems with aggressive armed US police behaviour.

Exactly, when you see a large section of white middle class women walking down the streets shouting don't shoot and conflating american police brutality (which in itself has dodgy statistics when you compare unarmed men being killed) as in any way relevant to the UK you know it's not entirely based on reality but has a slight tinge of slactavism involved.

When you get white middle class women turning up in 'fuck the tories' t-shirts with a previous narrative of the tories are evil for defunding the police going on marches that want to defund the police it would be ironic if we held them up to a standard of normal intellect, it's hashtag activism in most cases in the UK, they are not even consistent in the statues they want to topple.

If BLM UK want to tackle this, they are going to have to face up to some chicken and egg statistics that unfortunetly cannot be blamed on the tories, which a lot of middle class white women are going to have problems with.

Goosefoot · 11/06/2020 20:30

No, you aren't being unreasonable. I am really worried about this.

Part of the appeal of this stuff to a lot of people is that it's really way easier than the hard work required to figure out what the cause of problems are, and to gain consensus about solutions. It's not that they don't want to end racism etc, but guess what, racism, class, and poverty and not simply problems. The solutions are not obvious. And to get people to take concrete action together takes a lot of work and bridge building. At tackling poverty in addition could require a lot of self-sacrifice, changing basic things about our economy, and that will mostly affect the middle classes and above.

It's way easier and more satisfying to pull down monuments, but it diverts political and social energy from the real work.

It's also way better for the powerful in society, which is why the NYT and the Democratic Party support this stuff.

MaMaLa321 · 11/06/2020 22:56

I love Posey Parker's latest

KeepWashingThoseHands · 12/06/2020 00:40

I posted early to say I agree with the OP.

I am a white woman and sometimes don't post on these threads as have white guilt as much as white privilege.

My story is I grew up in one of those Lancashire cotton towns and my family are Irish immigrants who did the lowest paid jobs, different generations on both sides, but all subjected to a lot of racism. When some of my family moved here in the 50's and 60's the signs said: no Irish, no blacks and no children, in that order. It was even worse when they moved at the turn of the century to escape famine and hardship. My grandfather served in the British navy in WWI but wasn't recognised, and more accurately admonished. My dad was beaten up in the 90's as anyone Irish was considered IRA. I've personally experienced being aggressively pulled over and searched at airports and channel crossings between England and Ireland for this reason multiple times. My dads best friend from work was black as I think they respected each other and were kindred spirits by shared experience.

What my family experienced was racism but I appreciate the inherent difference black people have had to endure and it's on a whole other level I can't imagine.

The point I'm trying to make is the UK and a lot of other colonialist countries are built on the (broken) backs of others. It's utterly abhorrent to think about slavery now and the terrible terrible treatment of black people and a lot of others (lest not forgot the disaster in India ~1957, the list goes on). Statues should have been removed long ago - but we can't erase the history. Don't get me started on English colonialist rule of Ireland, that's raw to me. It serves as a reminder of things we should never forget or ever do again.

Things are of their time. That time doesn't represent my views and I care about changing the future more than rewriting the past.

I hope the world changes - it has to.

Wbeezer · 12/06/2020 12:49

Thank you @Hamsterarse that Coleman Hughes video is exactly what ive been looking for to articulate my thoughts on the matter in a less waffly manner. Sadly i suspect he will be dismissed as "centrist" or right wing in the same way gender critical feminists are. I prefer to think if him as rational and logical.