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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think erasing monuments and blackface doesn't help solve the race issue at all?

254 replies

GinDaddyRedux · 11/06/2020 05:42

I will try and keep this brief but I am getting increasingly furious (not overstatement) at the typical kneejerk, self-serving, virtue signalling nonsense I am seeing around race in the UK, in response to the protests following the death of George Floyd in the United States.

For context, I am a mixed race (black Afro-Caribbean/white) male who grew up in London around great people, knowing and looking up to a lot of the chaps whose fathers came off the Windrush or came in the 60s and 70s to work in London on transport etc. I feel a real connection to the islands as a heritage, but have always been fervently British as it's the only home I've known since birth.

Here's the thing that I find ridiculous. Why, just why are we now spending so much time and effort going through every public monument and reference to colonialism or slavery, and every instance of blackface or other comedy on TV, and erasing them from view as some sort of panacea that will solve the race issue? When there are vital social issues that need addressing that will help black people far quicker and more fundamentally then dealing with blackface?!

I thought Little Britain was hilarious. I think every character was a fantastic send-up of modern British sterotypes. And for modern British stereotypes to actually work, you need black people funnily enough. So I have no problems with the premise. Going further - to indicate a black person on screen, there's only a few ways to go about it, and considering how Lucas and Walliams are the authors of all their characters, it was going to be necessary for them to do something.

Who on earth then considers it helpful to the race relations debate in this country, to remove something from public viewing, that is perfectly within the licence of art and comedy, and which I doubt has been named in the list of influential factors around race that lead to black men's deaths in police custody?

Similarly, we seem to now be forensically combing our civic institutions, universities, libraries, consecrated places, and checking whether any of the statues, bequests, named buildings are connected to slavery.

It's the sort of handwringing, worthy effort that I expected, because it makes people feel they are doing something. It makes for nice headlines and distracts from the real issues that actually need addressing.

Namely, if governments want to help black people, start with the environment some of us (not all!) grow up in. Look at the structural things in terms of poverty, lack of access to resources, deprived areas, parental structures, health services, and see where this tends to lead to.

Then look at the number of convictions for police who have been brought to trial for the wrongful death of a black person in custody. You'll be looking for a long time.

The reactions to the protests are typical of British leaders who look for low-hanging fruit and public headlines over anything more fundamental. We are a more inclusive country than we are given credit; when writing this I was reminded of how South Asian friends of mine were laughing at the character of Taaj from "Come Fly With Me", stating Lucas' accent and slang was eerily spot on for a Midlands Asian chap. There's a great British tradition that if folk are openly and happily taking the piss out of you, it means you're a mate. That sketch was definitely in that spirit.

I just feel that yes, little things and perceptions around race matter. But to cleanse our streets of statues won't change the fundamental destinations and outcomes for black men and women in the UK. It will just make (largely white) councillors, politicians and leaders feel better. And that's what this is always about in the end.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 12/06/2020 15:18

I'm just so glad at least 2 people have now seen Coleman Hughes Grin

I dream of the day someone like him will be on and in MSM news

He is dismissed vehemently by the left, because he disintegrates their narrative instantly.

He was great on this podcast with Sam Harris too - that's when I made the massive shift in how I think about racism and BLM

samharris.org/podcasts/134-beyond-politics-race/

Wbeezer · 12/06/2020 16:36

Yeah they have spent years on that story and will cling on it for dear life, a real case of a sunk cost fallacy.

MaMaLa321 · 12/06/2020 16:56

I'd never heard of Coleman Hughes, and enjoyed the interview very much.
One of the great things about the internet is that I can be linked to someone that I'd not come across, for a long interview, where they are given time to explore their thoughts. Broadcast media doesn't have the time to do that, nor, often, the inclination.

sst1234 · 12/06/2020 16:59

All this statue bashing has nothing to do with equality or opposing oppression. Do we think most BAME people go to bed at night traumatised about statues of historical figures who may have held racist views. This kind of virtue signalling is largely the preserve of lefties - champagne socialists and the great unwashed looking for any excuse to protest. Leaving the real work of changing stereotypes to people that do real everyday work.

nellodee · 12/06/2020 17:11

It's very hard. There has to be a time limit, in historical terms. We're not going to pull down the pyramids because Cheops was big on slavery.

However, I think in relative terms, slavery in Britain is fairly contemporary. Families that made money on it are still in power. Colonialism and British Imperialism are still, in some circles, looked back on as being the peak of Britishness.

I honestly don't know where the cut off point lies between historical artefact and celebration.

I am sad to lose The Mighty Boosh and The League of Gentlemen. I hope it makes a positive difference to someone that they are gone, to balance out my regret. If it does, then I think it has to be done. If no-one cares, then it's a bit annoying. I think there is a huge chasm between the surreal humour of those shows and the horrendous slide towards fascism taking place in the US under Trump. I struggle to connect the two issues in my head. But I think it's one of those things where if someone tells you it's offensive, you have to take their word for it.

A bit like "menstruators"

Wbeezer · 12/06/2020 18:56

Somebody's daubed the statue of Robert The Bruce at Bannockburn with BLM slogans... That one is going to tie the virtue signalling wing of the SNP in knots...

Bluemoooon · 12/06/2020 19:16

That one is going to tie the virtue signalling wing of the SNP in knots...

They'll say they're proud that Scottish heroes are demonstrating support for BLM -

derxa · 12/06/2020 19:41

Somebody's daubed the statue of Robert The Bruce at Bannockburn with BLM slogans Absolute ignorance

june2007 · 12/06/2020 19:45

I agree the bLM movement is full of controversy. People told it,s about being black not Bame.
People breaking lock down.
People throwing things at horses and police,
Vandalism of statues.

EachDubh · 12/06/2020 20:23

I loved the national response to the graffiti on The Bruce statue. To the point.

june2007 · 12/06/2020 20:30

Should America get rid of Mount Rushmere as well?

EachDubh · 12/06/2020 20:34

Sorry never responded to op. I love history and likes the idea a poster had about qr codes on things with the good the bad and the ugly. We can't change the past, we can't judge characters of the past with 21st c. Eyes. But we can learn from what happened and we can change things so we don't repeat the same mistakes, atrocities, miscarriages of justice. I don't know the best way to move forward, history will judge us on that, but i think there needs to be big conversations about the directions we move in going forward.

itsgettingweird · 12/06/2020 20:56

I would much rather recognise poor history and do something more proactive to deal with the still very serious issue of trafficking we have in the U.K.

I know we recognise now how abhorrent it is and that's why it's illegal.

But it's still far to prevelant.

BogRollBOGOF · 12/06/2020 21:58

We need to add to the narrative of history, not conceal away the parts that don't match up to modern moral standards.

I'd been meaning to watch A House Through Time and caught up with it today, which turns out to be very topical with the house's construction and early owners' connections to the slave trade. The section about the black "servant" as a fashionable novelty was very interesting and it's very constructive adding these social naratives to established history.

Context matters. What are these statues celebrating? What is the legacy of these people? Churchill and Baden Powell were colonialists with all the faulted baggage of their class, but that's not what they are celebrated for. They have statues for their contributions to winning WW2 and creating Scouting- a very positive equalising organisation that's long outlived the social values of its founder and has progressed far beyond its Empire building roots.

Again with comedy, context matters. A lot has aged badly and faded into the dusty archives to be largely forgotten and no bad thing too. The point of Little Britain was that it was uncomfortable, and quite brutally ripped apart numerous stereotypes. It also challenged petty minded rascism such as the Fat Fighters leader always failing to hear her perfectly clear Asian client. It's very different to the casual racism of the 70s.

Society clearly has a long way to progress in creating equality of experiences and opportunities, but tidying up the legacies of historic racists and exploitative colonialists makes it easier for racists to deny the racism that still persits.

Wbeezer · 12/06/2020 23:50

Perhaps they should just put traffic cones on all the dubious statuary's heads, like the one permanently perched on The Duke of Wellingtons head in Glasgow, destroy their dignity.

LiesHumansTellThemselves · 13/06/2020 00:00

"Where they burn books, they will, in the end, burn human beings too."

Extreme left, extreme right. Makes no difference. It is the extreme that is the problem not the flavour.

BakedCam · 13/06/2020 00:45

[quote Tanith]One thing we can all do would be to sign the petition on the pregnancy board about improving care and outcomes for black women. Something really important that is not getting enough attention.

This is the petition endofthelinefinally mentioned:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/301079[/quote]
Thank you. Was just heading to look for it.

BakedCam · 13/06/2020 00:52

This has been a fantastic and informative thread. Thanks, OP.

caringcarer · 13/06/2020 01:14

Going around the country pulling statues down that many local people like is madness. The people in the statues lived in a different would with different values. I am worried about the likelihood of violence if BLM which is far left and Tommy Robinson far right clash.

This whole backlash started from a black man being killed in US. The US police acted badly and killed a person but he is charged, and onlookers who did not stop him charged too.

If people want slavery to stop support the anti slavery organisation like I do. Pay £10 a month and they make a positive difference to black lives.

Instead of going around the country pulling down statues set up a direct debit to make a real difference.

Op is right. Taking programmes off air is stupid. Fawlty Towers is not offensive and It is so funny. Everyone knows it is not serious. I have even read they are considering Dad's Army to be taken off air. The German's have a sense of humour. My son had the Dad's Army on his phone ring tone when on German exchange. His friend put it on as a joke. German's thought very funny.

Leave our statues and TV programmes alone.

SirTanty · 13/06/2020 06:59

You think BLM is ‘far left’?

ButtonandPickle19 · 13/06/2020 07:05

Pretending it didn’t happen doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. I actually think it’s better to teach the next generation why that was wrong and accept the bad parts of history that make us look and feel bad.

TwilightPeace · 13/06/2020 07:15

I worry that the BLM movement won’t help race relations and even may make it worse.

Why should BLM have to help improve race relations? It was white people that caused the problems so white people should fix them. Why should the oppressed group have to solve everything?

tearing down the statues makes sense at one level, but denying how bad humans can be sets a really dangerous precedent.

What? How is removing statues ‘denying how bad humans can be’? They aren’t being removed so anyone can ‘deny’ anything. They are are symbols of an era that has no relevance to modern society, symbols of evil and cruelty. We don’t need visual reminders of this in our cities.

if we accept that black people tend to have lower socioeconomic status, they are the exact communities who need good policing.

No. What they need is money. Instead of wasting money on policing and cramming people into jails (which does absolutely fuck all good long-term) it’s time to invest in these communities. Punishing people for being born into shitty disadvantaged circumstances is never going to solve anything.
I know it’s difficult for a lot of privileged people, but try and look at the situation from a different angle and have a bit of compassion.

yet I fear BLM creates more division and a victim mentality that doesn’t support progress in the long run.

BLM hasn’t created division. White people created the division by oppressing black people for long. Again, it’s a problem for white people to fix.

midgebabe · 13/06/2020 07:46

I do think BLM should help to improve race relations, just like women have to sort out feminism. It is only through coming together that things will change.

Just having demonstrations won't change things
Violence leads to increased violence and then eiether a regime change or more likely a suppression, both of which will be racist solutions

I think statues is a strange one, because I strongly suspect that almost every historical figure from almost every culture will have been racist, and I think every successful man in almost any time and culture has achieved that through, at some level, the abuse of others. Factory mill owners. "Scottish" landlords , pit owners. Slave traders, slaver owners, people whose goods were cheap because they were made by slaves. And every human has done something wrong in their life.

Coulson however has been a source of disgust for many years

Wehavealllosttheplot · 13/06/2020 08:05

I could have written this myself!

Black lady here. I was saying the same thing yesterday to one of the docs I work with.

Black People: We just want to be treated equally.

BBC: Challenge accepted! Let's get rid of Little Britain and Gone With The Wind. That will solve it!

The whole thing is now becoming embarrassing! Hugely! Hmm

hamstersarse · 13/06/2020 08:16

@TwilightPeace

I worry that the BLM movement won’t help race relations and even may make it worse.

Why should BLM have to help improve race relations? It was white people that caused the problems so white people should fix them. Why should the oppressed group have to solve everything?

tearing down the statues makes sense at one level, but denying how bad humans can be sets a really dangerous precedent.

What? How is removing statues ‘denying how bad humans can be’? They aren’t being removed so anyone can ‘deny’ anything. They are are symbols of an era that has no relevance to modern society, symbols of evil and cruelty. We don’t need visual reminders of this in our cities.

if we accept that black people tend to have lower socioeconomic status, they are the exact communities who need good policing.

No. What they need is money. Instead of wasting money on policing and cramming people into jails (which does absolutely fuck all good long-term) it’s time to invest in these communities. Punishing people for being born into shitty disadvantaged circumstances is never going to solve anything.
I know it’s difficult for a lot of privileged people, but try and look at the situation from a different angle and have a bit of compassion.

yet I fear BLM creates more division and a victim mentality that doesn’t support progress in the long run.

BLM hasn’t created division. White people created the division by oppressing black people for long. Again, it’s a problem for white people to fix.

White people should fix it? OK, I get the sentiment and I would say that white people have and do a lot to 'fix it'. Racism in the UK now is minimal, there are individual racists but there is no denying that being racist is not an especially desirable or acceptable thing for the majority of people in the UK. Do you believe in positive discrimination and quotas? We have done that to a certain extent and the unintended consequences have been that some BAME people feel like their merit is questioned.

In saying that, it is possible we have different definitions of what racism actually is. My definition is treating someone of a different race as being inferior. So it is questionable whether Little Britain represents this definition - does Black Face automatically mean that the person doing it thinks black people are inferior? I think it is very difficult to know that for sure. They could of course, but it is not always the case.

Re policing, I think there are very few communities who would say that policing is a waste of money. You have said that you think it is 'punishing people born into shitty disadvantaged circumstances' and that is a really difficult pill for most people to swallow. You are creating a victim status where a person born with less is given free reign to do what they want - because life is not fair? That really is the road to ruin. For everyone - the person born with less too!

I don't think creating a victim status helps anyone in the long run. It excuses and denies people the opportunities to take personal responsibility for their own actions - to have agency over their future. Psychological research is very clear about that - living in a perpetual victim mentality (in this case - that everything about a black life is caused by evil white people) does not help people! That's the facts - victim mentality doesn't help people. If you look at the psychological research about this, it is unequivocal and I think it is the opposite of racism to say that BLM is perpetually putting black people into a victim mentality which ultimately is the worst thing for their own wellbeing and life prospects!