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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

This is fucking sexist

269 replies

catflapuk · 03/06/2020 11:21

So, I work in a fucking men's domain. I'm so angry.

We are a team of 3 people - one for Americas, me for Europe, one for APAC. Both my colleagues are male.

Another team is working on a global client project, including Americas, Europe and APAC (in this order) and requires our input. My team's names will be listed as the team of contributing experts.

The fucking lead of this team, who is also male, lists my male colleagues first and me last.

AIBU to be so fucking annoyed?

OP posts:
MsTSwift · 04/06/2020 08:38

Absolutely right op. I can only assume the “don’t make a fuss” crowd have never had senior corporate roles.

When I left my magic circle law firm there were 50 odd lawyers in the team evenly mixed maybe few more women. 12 partners all Male one woman who was on gardening leave with mental health issues 🙄🙄 can’t think why I left and set up my own business!

AlanAlAl · 04/06/2020 08:53

I work in a male dominated workplace, very heavy work, dirty and sweaty 😂 lovely! Haha
It makes no difference to me, they don't treat me as a weak female who can't handle it. They know I'll ask for help if something is a bit too heavy for me. I'm treated as 'one of the lads' 🤷‍♀️

Some women take things way to personally in my honest opinion. I dont see what the issue is here.

MsTSwift · 04/06/2020 08:57

If you haven’t worked at the level of op in an industry similar to her sorry but your comments are meaningless

AlanAlAl · 04/06/2020 09:02

Nobody's comments are meaningless, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

MsTSwift · 04/06/2020 09:09

Yes but it carries no weight. Like my opinion about being an airline pilot is meaningless. Unless you’ve worked in a similar environment it may seem petty but believe me it isn’t.

rainkeepsfallingdown · 04/06/2020 09:12

It's not a battle I would pick.

"List of experts: A, B, C."

InescapableDeath · 04/06/2020 09:51

I can’t believe the amount of people misreading and thinking this is about an email list or no biggie.

Use your imagination!

Of course there are situations when where your name is placed carries weight and may affect your cv/career - projects and documents included!

Blibbyblobby · 04/06/2020 10:31

It could be everyday sexism. It could also be any one of a number of other things, the order in which your names popped into his head, the order he saw them written down.

But those can also be examples of sexism. Sexism isn't a guy in black twirling his moustache and coming up with new ways to oppress the women. It's people unconsciously putting the men before the women : who they think of first when they think of who is in the team.

BrexpatInSwitzerland · 04/06/2020 11:05

Absolutely!

And - while I don't think that, in general, everyday sexism is in any way exclusive to senior corporate roles - I would agree with @MsTSwift that it tends to have some aspects that are somewhat specific to them.

Recent personal example: I decide to take the intern along to a contract negotiation to take notes. After all, it's an internship - they're meant to be learning something.

Our negotiation team is shaped as follows: - Myself, the executive in charge and deal sponsor for my firm. Female, in my thirties.

  • Our legal counsel. Female, in her forties, also ranked as a senior executive.
  • The intern. Bright eyed and bushy tailed. Smart and eager - but also an intern and pretty bloody clueless. Male and in his early twenties.

Now, I've a long-standing relationship with my direct client counterparts. Our legal counsel does not. Intern has met the client a few times. None of us has met their procurement guy and their own legal counsel as both are new to the client organisation. Both male in their forties or fifties.

Have a wild guess who both procurement guy and their legal greeted first and initially seemed to assume was the person in charge?

(And, yes, apart from this being ridiculously sexist, it's also unprofessional and suggests poor preparation on their part - they should have asked their business partners who is who before the meeting. Neither legal colleague nor myself are sympathetic enough not to have used their lack of preparation to our advantage!)

BlingLoving · 04/06/2020 11:06

I'm treated as 'one of the lads'

To be honest, this makes me sad. I used to think this was great and lovely, but then I realised it works because male culture is default culture so a woman has to be "one of the lads" to get by. And you may or may not be totally happy with that, but for a lot of woman, that's actually not something they want todo and they shouldn't have to be "one of the lads" for it all to be okay at work.

Also, whether you accept it or not, there's a level of patronising to being "one of the lads". "Ooh, shelley's okay, she's not like other women, she's one of the lads". I mean, the default is that women are lesser but you're okay? Sorry, that's just ick.

Bonzabaybee · 04/06/2020 11:14

@BlingLoving 100%

BrexpatInSwitzerland · 04/06/2020 11:21

I realised it works because male culture is default culture so a woman has to be "one of the lads" to get by.

Yes, this, too!

Also, sometimes it's simply not feasible to keep on pretending you're not different.

Imagine my reaction when - faced with my first company retreat when I first got here some years ago - I realised that a) a team sauna session seemed to literally be the done thing at these things (hadn't been at my old firm), that b) continental Europeans actually go to the sauna sans swimwear and that, as a result c) I was somehow having to find a way to not make everyone including myself feel extremely awkward upon the realisation that one colleague has boobs? I spent an entire weekend feigning a cold and wasted half a forest in paper tissues in order to get out of that particular one

cringyminge · 04/06/2020 11:31

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ.

EBearhug · 04/06/2020 12:12

there's a level of patronising to being "one of the lads". "Ooh, shelley's okay, she's not like other women, she's one of the lads". I mean, the default is that women are lesser but you're okay?

I once pulled male colleagues up on making, "phwoar, she's all right!" type comments on a new woman in another department. "Oh, but you don't count, you're one of us," I was told. It's still not okay to objectify other colleagues or any other woman - and I am not sure I am that happy at being accepted at the expense of my womanhood. It should be okay to be accepted as one of the team and be recognised as a woman, and for that not to be something to marvel at as a novelty.

ShinyFootball · 04/06/2020 12:58

YY to one of the lads stuff.

There are often 2 choices

One of the lads
Not one of the lads

The first option IME means that the men feel free to switch off their 'lady present' filter and joke about porn, strippers, etc etc

The second option means you don't get so much of that, bit are treated as other > 'lady present' mode

Neither are much good. My personality means I end up in option 1 by default, sand I really hate all that sort of talk and always have. It makes me feel uncomfortable when I'm the only woman and they're all having fun objectifying women.

As ebear says, 'It should be okay to be accepted as one of the team and be recognised as a woman, and for that not to be something to marvel at as a novelty.'

EngiNerd · 04/06/2020 17:33

It's hard to say. I work in a male dominated field as well but if I saw this I don't think this would be my first thought. You could be making something out of nothing but I don't think YABU to have those feelings.

Kingston74 · 04/06/2020 17:37

It's sexist against men to assume that women should come first. Is it alphabetical? If it is, then it is acceptable. It's EQUALITY FOR ALL - NOT - EXTRA RIGHTS FOR WOMEN. To presume that women should come first is misandrist.

Fimofriend · 04/06/2020 17:41

Well, I was just informed on another thread that as I am white, I cannot complain about racism as it is worse for black people, so someone will surely come along and tell you that you cannot complain about misogyny as you have neither been victim of FGM or been trafficked. F them! Misogyny is always wrong and racism is always wrong and the fact that other people have it worse doesn't make it ok.

bondgirl76 · 04/06/2020 17:50

Do you have to keep swearing

MsTSwift · 04/06/2020 18:05

Sexist against men - heard it all now! Yes the deck is really stacked against men isn’t it 🙄🙄

sillysmiles · 04/06/2020 18:06

@Kingston74

It's sexist against men to assume that women should come first. Is it alphabetical? If it is, then it is acceptable. It's EQUALITY FOR ALL - NOT - EXTRA RIGHTS FOR WOMEN. To presume that women should come first is misandrist.
*Kingston74 It's sexist against men to assume that women should come first. Is it alphabetical?*

Do you have comprehension issues? The OP is not requesting to be first, she requested that the existing policy be adhered to. Hardly a giant leap to request one would think.

FFSufingfckr · 04/06/2020 18:15

These seem like small petty things to some but when you experience it every day of your working life it's fucking annoying. I experience this all the time and at the point now where my female colleague and I are completely left out of communications as it's assumed we are just there helping the men with the admin that they're too important to deal with. I'm sick of complaining about it and being ignored by my male and female management.

StoneofDestiny · 04/06/2020 18:23

I'd be pissed off also.

Good on you OP - I worked through an era where if you challenged any sexism it meant you were called a 'lesbian man hater' I kid you not! (note 'lesbian was also thought to be an insult!)

Fortunately I fought through the blatant and unconscious sexism to become in charge of the place. I ensured no titles (Mrs/Mr/Ms - the only choice then) was on notepaper/doors etc and that all pigeon holes etc were in alphabetical order - before they were in men first, women second. No surprise that it was only men who were in charge of departments before I took charge - after that it was the best personnel who were in charge.
Small things do matter because they often point to other issues.

FelicisNox · 04/06/2020 18:57

YANBU.

You know it's sexist and so do they but good luck bringing that up without being labelled as a psychotic feminist lesbian ball breaker.

BrexpatInSwitzerland · 04/06/2020 19:13

@FelicisNox

YANBU.

You know it's sexist and so do they but good luck bringing that up without being labelled as a psychotic feminist lesbian ball breaker.

Correction: the policy-compliant and therefore correct way of phrasing this is, in fact:

I've noticed that you seem to be a bit over-sensitive regarding this particular issue and I strongly feel that you're not doing your career any favours if this is to be your personal brand. Why don't you focu on the bigger picture and give a public speech/host a panel of how empowering it is to be a female executive in STEM and inspire some female graduates with your success story? We could get you a prime time slot at [prestigious industry conference]

Translation: Shut the fuck up, woman! You're letting the side down by pointing out that reality is nothing like what we say in the recruiting brochures targeted specifically at women and it could become embarrassing ...

Source: tooooooootally hypothetical. Most definitely never happened to me. Ever. At all.

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