This is fucking sexist

[catflapuk]

So, I work in a fucking men's domain. I'm so angry.

We are a team of 3 people - one for Americas, me for Europe, one for APAC. Both my colleagues are male.

Another team is working on a global client project, including Americas, Europe and APAC (in this order) and requires our input. My team's names will be listed as the team of contributing experts.

The fucking lead of this team, who is also male, lists my male colleagues first and me last.

AIBU to be so fucking annoyed?

[catflapuk]

@Hollowgast

Doesn't look good, I grant you. What are the relative sizes of the businesses? Where I work we order thing in terms of biggest businesses first so if APAC < Europe / Americas then we'd put APAC last.

My region has the most clients and makes the most money. Perhaps I should be listen first according to that logic?

[emilybrontescorsett]

Of course you should be second and not last according to the facts you have given. It is everyday sexism.

[ProsperTheBear]

Absolutely no way to know it's sexist.

Don't play the "Sexist card" to get your way, you are weakening your position and mocking all of us.

[BeingATwatItsABingThing]

Name order is very rarely done without thought.

Alphabetical or by seniority is a conscious decision.

When my partner teacher puts our YG teacher names on things (three of us), mine goes second. I’m the least senior in the year group but she likes me more. There are plenty of reasons why it would make sense for mine to go last and I wouldn’t care but she puts my name second.

In the big scheme of things, it doesn’t matter but it wasn’t done without at least subconscious thought.

[PrimeroseHillAnnie]

There are just three names. You sound hard work.

[BlingLoving]

What's so insidious about this type of sexism is how hard it is to challenge it without looking petty or "hysterical". But yes, it's 100% wrong.

I make a point of regularly ensuring i put women first on emails. When I worked in a large international bank, it was sort of vaguely understand that email addresses went by order of seniority. But funnily enough, even within that, 3 MDs, 2 men and 1 women, it would almost always be the two men then the woman then the less senior people. I'd make a point of sticking the woman first if she was at the same level as the men!

[BiggerBoat1]

Does it really matter? Someone has to go last. Seems a very petty thing to get irritated by in my opinion.

[ZaraW]

OP do you experience sexism in the workplace?

[FFSFFSFFS]

Some really depressing responses here about how the OP really shouldn't make a fuss and really she should just be quiet.

Of course this kind of shit matters - it shows how women's work is routinely undervalued and that has real life implications.

If names re listed in terms of input - whoever picks it up will not think the OP has contributed as much as she has and that will be reflected in the way and manner in which her work is valued.

[Hileni]

Everyday sexism. Sorry you're on the brunt of it, OP.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Does it really matter? Someone has to go last. Yes, it does. OP has explained why and how academia get around any perceived 'unfairness'. That is absolutely standard protocol in most professions. No reason to expect OP to step back and accept less than SOP, is there?

[cabbageking]

No it is petty.

Choose your battles.

[TheOrigBrave]

If there are criteria for the order of names and they have not been adhered to then you simply address that directly with the person who got it wrong. I work in academic science, there are criteria for the order of authors of publications. If someone got it wrong I'd just tell them.

If there are no rules then I think it's a pretty big assumption to assume you are last BECAUSE you are female, when there are only 3 people.

If you are always last (of the 3) then maybe you have a valid concern ie it's not just random. Are there are other instances you can tell us about?

Do you feel generally undervalued BECAUSE YOU ARE FEMALE by your colleagues?

[seeingdots]

It doesn't really matter. Don't make a fuss over something so trivial. Don't play the sexism card...

FFS, this is how everyday sexism is perpetuated. It's a devaluing of women's contributions in the workplace and it should be challenged. Good on you OP.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

No it is petty.

Choose your battles.

If you think professional standing is petty then I hope you never, ever have a job where it makes a difference to you. To your salary, promotional chances, professional kudos, etc etc. All matter in some professions.

It should mater in all spheres of life. Reducing someone's importance because of sex, skin colour, disability etc... all are inimicable and should be corrected.

Hell, there's even a law about it!

[GaspingGekko]

It could be everyday sexism. It could also be any one of a number of other things, the order in which your names popped into his head, the order he saw them written down.
It was probably thoughtless of him to not make sure it was in some established order (alphabetical name, alphabetical region, size of region) but equally to label someone as sexist because they don't always think about these things is harsh. Call it male privilege if you like, not having to consider this all the time, but that is not the same as sexism.

I get that it's tough, I work in a male dominated environment and come across plenty of sexism. I think you're right to request that the names be put into some sort of actual order. I think that calling it sexism when you don't know that it is, isn't reasonable.

[TheOrigBrave]

Has this happened before? By the same person? Have you asked him whether he understands the order names should be in?

I'm trying to get a fuller picture of this as your reaction seems extreme if this is the first time and it's been fixed. It could have been a genuine mistake - the guy might not have considered men/women when writing the list, just put names down w/o any thought. Just because you were last (out of three) doesn't make him sexist.

[Tigersneeze]

No it is petty.

Choose your battles.

-

it isn't petty. hierarchy of names is undeniably linked to status in corporate structures. status is linked to salaries, promotions and career development.

Saying it doesn't matter is minimising everyday sexism.

[Hollowgast]

Hollowgast

Doesn't look good, I grant you. What are the relative sizes of the businesses? Where I work we order thing in terms of biggest businesses first so if APAC < Europe / Americas then we'd put APAC last.

Catflapuk
My region has the most clients and makes the most money. Perhaps I should be listen first according to that logic?

Sounds reasonable to me!

[BlueJava]

Another perspective, this actually happened to me this morning...

I was also making a list of stakeholders last week which I ciruclated today, much the same as your colleague. I put the woman's name first. No issue I thought. The woman named first said to me this morning via chat "Why do you always put the female name first? It's perpetuating the patriarchal ideal of 'little woman' and 'ladies first'".

I have responded, "Sorry you feel that way, I've changed to alpha order" because frankly I don't care, I am not going to argue with her, I just want to get the list out. She is now last. She probably won't like that either.

Possible solution - Perhaps I should just put together anagrams of made up of all the names so they aren't in any order and people have to unscramble them to find out who is on the list.

[burnoutbabe]

if it was just an list of staff who contributed i'd expect it to be alpahabetical or based on who did most work if not(or senior)

Else it should say XY - APAC
YY America
ZZ Europe
so its clearer, then i wouldn't be fussed on what order they are in (unless some reason they should be in some order)

[KaleJuicer]

I think the people who think this is petty don't work in an industry where this is important. Authorship of articles in scientific journals - the order of the names is key.

I worked in a very large magic circle law firm in the City and group emails are sent with names listed in order of seniority. I used to have a copy of the firm letterhead in front of me so I could see who was a more senior partner (as the letterhead listed the partners in order of election). If not seniority then alphabetically.

You have been slighted and you're right to pick it up. It's not petty. It is a micro aggression. Just in case you think you're going mad. It should have been alphabetical.

[littlemeitslyn]

Stop the bad language, adds nothing and makes you look ignorant

[AnduinsGirl]

Things like this annoy me too, OP. I had one recently too. I've lived in my house for years and, of course, all the council tax bills came addressed to Miss AnduinsGirl. My partner moved in and we let the council know. The next bill is addressed to Mr John Smith and Miss Anduins Girl.
Why am I suddenly demoted? I'm still the sole owner and main breadwinner!
Very annoying.

[SweetPetrichor]

I wouldn't want to work with you OP. This is a non-issue.