Would you carry on letting grandparents see child after this?

[Slidetotheleft]

DD's (5) father disappeared off the face of the earth 12 months ago. Has paid no maintenance since then. Currently owes over 3k and counting.

DDs grandparents (his parents) know where he is but refuse to tell me. Their argument is that he is trying to rebuild his business/life and cannot do that with the maintenance people on his back. He hasn't even sent DD a birthday card or anything at xmas. The maintenance people cannot find him, his parents know where he is but refuse to tell me and if DD asks them they say they don't know (not sure how long they can carry that on for).

They are currently still seeing DD twice a month (not during lockdown). And speak to her once a week on the phone.

My question is WIBU to say actually whilst you cannot be honest with me or DD I don't want her in your care. I DO NOT want to do this, DD enjoys their company and they love seeing her.

But it really really gets to me that they are happy to see her go without the support she deserves and to actually lie to her face when she asks where her daddy is.

What would you do?

I thought I was going to say you can't stop them seeing her but actually, if he's a father, they are not grandparents so it's up to them what they choose! Cheeky bastards wanting it both ways

Op I'm another who'd be more than tempted to cut contact. It just doesn't sit right with me that they are lying to her.

Are they even offering any financial or childcare support? Or do they just want to be Disney GPs all the fun no responsibility?

Do you have plenty support around you, say you were ill or something who would support you and DC?

I would tell them the consequences of their actions, that is that they are depriving your DD of money required for her daily needs, clothing etc. Explain that they are being deceitful and that this will no longer continue.
The fact that you ex has walked away and abandoned her is bad enough, the way they are enabling him to do this is appalling. I would give them an ultimatum that the must assist you in getting maintenance and contact or visits will be on your terms. Continue as you have in quarantine and don't allow contact. Tell your DD the truth, once she knows they know her fathers location she'll not be interested in them.
You don't need family like this in her life if they can't be honest with you or her and face the reality of their sons despicable actions on your daughter and yourself.

If he’s starting a business wouldn’t he be traceable through that?

Oh that’s so hard. I think I would cut them out. I would be so angry that they are facilitating his deception, and how can they justify his behaviour, surely they should be furious on your DDs behalf that her daddy has simply walked out of her life.

Do they provide her with anything? By keeping the relationship with then going you may have a better chance of them giving you his details at a later date.

You could suggest that they pay the CSA, otherwise they can forget about seeing her?
This will tell you all you need to know about how important she is to them.

@NailsNeedDoing

You can’t take a valued and important relationship away

But is it a valued relationship if it is based on lies and deceit?!! They are denying a five year old the opportunity to communicate with her Dad. They are standing in the way of facilitating any contact. Yes, he might be threatening to cut his parents out of his life. But they then have to make a difficult choice over which relationship they value the most and morally, what is the right thing to do. They are supporting his deceit at an enormous cost (not just financial) to their grandchild. And one day she will feel hurt and betrayed by them when she realises.

This is difficult. Is another option to let her see them....but call out the lie to her in front of them. Eg “Granny and Grandad do know where Daddy is, DD, but they won’t tell us because they don’t think he should have to pay me the money the government says that he has to so that you can have food and clothes and some nice things.” And let them explain it. To her. Themselves. Why do they get to sit in the middle playing the good guys? That way, you don’t cut off the relationship, but your daughter gets to see it as it is.

I'm curious to find out what your DH's parents said about your DD receiving nothing for her birthday or Xmas ?

I think it would give a little insight into their way of thinking.............i.e if they said 'I'm sure Daddy would've sent you something if he could' or 'it must have gotten lost in the post' then I would think their defence of their DS was deeply entrenched and he can actually do no wrong in their eyes, so they make up excuses for his behaviour.
Whereas if they said ' I don't know why he didn't send a present....' then they may not be as defensive of him, and are expecting him to explain to his DD himself why he has disappeared etc in the future ?

I think I'd be asking them during the phone calls something like ''DD was asking for a new jacket/ dress/ toy (whatever), and as your son is dodging all aspects of his parental responsibility and leaving me to raise her alone, I obviously cannot afford to buy this. If he was being a proper father, he would be sharing the responsibility with me, but you are helping him to abandon his DD physically, emotionally and financially.
As she is now old enough to understand about the importance of telling the truth and the consequences of lying, I'm afraid I'm no longer willing to lie to her about where her DF is. I suggest you rethink your position of shielding your DS from his responsibility to his DD, as I will be telling her that you both know where he is, but won't tell me, meaning he doesn't have to see her, buy anything for her or do his share as a parent.
I don't imagine DD will share your belief that her needs are not as important as her Dads' :(

Better still, send it as a letter/ email, so they've got time to think before replying.

You can’t take a valued and important relationship away from three people including your young child because of a situation that is between two other people.

But it's not the OP who is taking the relationship away, it is the ex who has disappeared.

The onus should not be on the OP to facilitate this relationship, that should be done by the child's father. If he has fucked off and can't be arsed to a) see his child himself and b) ensure his parents have time with their grandchild, then that's all on him.

Do you regularly try and track him down? If he is a business owner then there may be records being added. Or he may have had to add himself to a furlough or universal credit application recently, I dont know if the CSA can access these? There are some cheap on line search sites that can access the data that isnt on the public records list/ electoral role incase hes registered to vote somewhere as this would help him with his credit worthiness for his business. Are the grandparents well off?

@TiddlestheCat the grandparents aren't denying a 5 year old the opportunity, the father is!
Knowing where he is won't allow for communication!

These are two separate issues. If they love her, keep up the visits.

Well first of all, NEVER collude with them. If your DD mentions asking them (as she clearly has) then tell her gently ‘I’m afraid I know that’s not true. But Dad is their son and so it’s difficult for them to know what to do because he’s not behaving very well just now.’

As for them, I wouldn’t issue a strong ultimatum but I’d say to them very firmly that this situation cannot continue indefinitely. Let them know your DD knows they are lying and say ‘I’m not sure how much longer I’m going to be comfortable letting my DD be with people who don’t have her best interests at heart’.

They say money can't buy you love. But apparently the lack of giving of it is a good reason for curtailing it, where it already exists. And it's fairly old testament to punish the family of the sinner. (It's not established they are sinners themselves. It's expecting a lot of them to take sides against their own child, to the extent they facilitate his enemies hunting him down.)

Not a hope in hell would they be seeing her if she were mine.

They have facilitated his disappearance, he is not supporting her but yet they will likely still be updating him. Firm no from me.

It’s your job as a parent to put any anger and bitterness aside and do things that make your daughter happy. That’s what you signed up for when you had a baby.

Please please don't cut contact. I totally understand why but you would be making your dd suffer MORE on top of losing her father. All the messages she will absorb from losing her father (unlovable/ not worth sticking around for) you will reinforce as two further people she loves are cut out of her life.

DD's dad is an adult. Don't punish the grandparents - who are simply trying right now to have loyalty to everybody - for his sins. Yes, if they know where he is, they are marginally contributing, but if that man doesn't want to be found or pay for his dd, then he won't regardless. And he is responsible for that - not them.

The only question as to whether the grandparents should be in her life is are they safe, positive caters for her? They clearly are.

Yes, it is not ideal to lie to a child and I am not sure exactly what they are saying...but this lie sounds possibly compassionate and appropriate for a child of that age. (And I assume you are also lying to her as you have not told her the reality either?) I don't think that's wrong at that age. The TRUTH - that her dad has left her for no good reason and doesn't even send a dime, her grandparents know where he is and are in touch but he can't be bothered to see her is far too agonizing to tell to a child.

I totally understand the frustration and distress this must cause you OP - it is deeply unjust. But this is when to be the bigger better person for your child's overall wellbeing.... please please don't cut people out of her life who love her.

Today 08:33 Saladmakesmesad

Well first of all, NEVER collude with them. If your DD mentions asking them (as she clearly has) then tell her gently ‘I’m afraid I know that’s not true. But Dad is their son and so it’s difficult for them to know what to do because he’s not behaving very well just now.’

Do you realise how complicated that is for a 5 year old? What a load of Bollox. That’s a shit idea. I’d go along with the I don’t know or daddy’s building his business/ working. This is about the child!!!

Tell them that they can still see her but need to arrange contact through him. That you’re not going to facilitate it anymore but her dad is welcome to. Then it’s up to them what they want to do.

This is spot on. You're in a real dilemma and I think this is the only way to solve it - it is not your responsibility to facilitate a relationship between your daughter and the parents of the father who abandoned her. Don't deny them a relationship, but let him facilitate it.

Your problem is with your ex, his parents are doing what you would do in protecting their 'child', however wrong you may think they are. If you use the children as a blackmail tool, which is what you suggest, then you're in the realms of Cash for Access, as one of our MPs got caught doing years ago

OP I did something similar to you, I facilitated contact with exs family as it was best for DD. Ex didn't pay CMS (disappeared then when reappeared requested a DNA test then disappeared again). He disappeared when she was 1 and reappeared when she was 12. His parents knew where he was, but wouldn't tell me or cms. Anyway I facilitated contact for a long time until ex had other DC then my DD was forgotten about. She was upset when they reduced contact and always spoke of their other GC. Me and DD spoke about her father recently and she said thought I was an idiot to let them see her, and I let them treat me really badly. Shes right I let them see her when they didn't have her best interests at heart.

If I was to do it all again I would have stopped contact but I was always trying to do the right thing by everyone and was quite young. If it happened now no way would it happen. Both exs parents died last year and DD was not invited to the funeral as it 'may upset his other DC'.

What an impossible situation you’re in. I really admire you for being able to handle this at all. Hope that doesn’t sound patronising, I meant it sincerely.

If it were me I think I’d do what I could to preserve DD’s relationship with the grandparents, especially if they try to mitigate their son’s failings by offering support instead (financial, childcare etc.).

However, I think I’d start being a bit more honest with your DD. She will feel that something is ‘off’ with her grandparents as she grows up, and it will have a negative impact on her. I think it would be helpful to have a conversation with the grandparents on your own and explain that you want their relationship to continue but that you won’t support anyone lying to your daughter, so you’re going to explain that they know where her DF is. You can do that in a really sensitive and simple way.

I work with children and often support parents to explain difficult family ‘secrets’ to them. More often than not they know far more than adults give them credit for, and are relieved to be told definitively what is actually going on. Children often make up stories to fill in the gaps, and usually the truth is easier for them to handle in the long run, even if it seems more painful to begin with.

Your daughter will learn the truth eventually - it’s how you manage it and support her with it.

Absolutely - you can't lay the adult shit complexity into a child.

Someone said the grandparents are denying the child the opportunity to communicate with her dad. No they are not. The dad is..... the only opportunity the dd could have would be to send a heart breaking communication or try to talk on the phone and be hung up on or ignored! The dad has to be willing to communicate and in a consistent reliable way with her for any communication to be an opportunity. He clearly isn't. Trying to enable or force communication would be disasterous for dd.

We have no idea how hard the grandparents are trying to convince their son to do the right thing. And they ARE trying to provide some love and stability from their side of the family in the meantime.