To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

In the end we will have to compromise

It's extraordinary. How do you intend to compromise with women's consent??

Transwomen ARE women. So your arguments that it is no longer a “single sex” space are invalid.

Er, no. Wishes don't make it so. Sex is clearly biological defined, including disorders of sex development. Btw that lack of a space is literal violence.

don’t think we do ourselves any favours by copying them on that front.

Really? They threaten us with violence, dox people, get women with opinions banned from SM, fired from their jobs and questioned by the police. Women were told they were transphobic bigots for wanting a conversation, I am totally fucking done with it and very comfortable with not being the bigger person in this situation. Also known as an appeal to female socialisation; why can't you just be kind!

(Biological) Females should not have their rights and feelings trampled in order for another's groups rights and feelings to be asserted.

Two separate things entirely. Why are these even discussed together. It's beyond ridiculous.

Rowantree2020 It'd more accurate to so that MN is pro-women which always seems to be translated to anti-trans by those wanting to shut down debate.

You told the OP they were posting on the wrong forum and to leave us to it. Now you are claiming that the women refusing to capitulate are somehow equally responsible for the #no debate slogan. Like we are the ones not willing to compromise even though we have budged up constantly to accommodate the feelings of men

Dont treat us like we're stupid, your earlier posts show your real agenda.

OP you’ve picked the wrong forum! Mumsnet is little more than an anti-trans echo chamber. Best to just let them vent.

I don’t see why m to f pre op trans people can’t use disabled toilets

Because they're not disabled?

I believe that if someone says they are a woman, and have been through a lifetime of feeling more comfortable in that gender, then we should respect that and let them use whatever bathroom they like

I believe that if a woman is born a woman and has been through a lifetime of fighting for equality or just even to be fucking heard, then we should respect that and their right to have the privacy of their own bathroom.

no and I don’t know what FWR is!

Female Women's Rights
The old name for the feminism board on here but now mainly known as feminism chat

We need single-sex facilities for women and girls, as evidenced by this thread.

Men who have a problem with facilities for men, need to sort it out between men. Men's problems with each other are nothing to do with women, and not a burden and labour for women to have to undertake and sort out and accommodate.

No. No men in women and girls' single-sex spaces, areas etc.

rowantrees, if you are genuine, and you really are new to this, this thread will help.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

For the last what 100 since civilisation women have finally but very gradually been able to make decisions based on what is best for us females

We females should continue to make decisions on what is best for us females - thats not males who feel they are female (because they never can truly understand what it’s like to be routinely sexualised from a young age, to feel threatened when alone simply because there is a male around - someone who is stronger, to just feel safer because there are no males about)

But for all their suffering some transwomen have been through and I truly believe they have when it comes to women’s experiences they have no interest if they don’t agree and the male entitlement lives on in them regardless of how they wish to be accepted as

(because they never can truly understand what it’s like to be routinely sexualised from a young age, to feel threatened when alone simply because there is a male around

This is where it gets speak for yourself.
Women aren't a big oppressed and beaten down blob.

@SarahTancredi I completely take your point about disabled people’s rights. I’d say that someone who genuinely has trans issues and isn’t just in it for the mini skirts and the chance to perv in ladies toilets has a real need to use a disabled toilet in some circumstances, and I don’t think people with that genuine need to be in a toilet space alone would abuse it.

Do men want single sex spaces? Some do, I think.
Would some self conscious teenage boys prefer single sex changing rooms?

Only men can be transwomen.

Women are legally entitled to single sex, male free spaces. It really doesn't matter how you feel about it. You don't get to decide my Young daughters have to share toilets and changing rooms with grown men.

I don’t like unisex cubicles either. Men can hide behind the door , if it is floor to ceiling. Men can put cameras up.
There might be a male cleaner, but he is one male, where many males use a space it becomes more likely that a camera might be hidden.

Having daughters, now young teens who might use single sex spaces without me, when shopping with friends, has made me hyper aware if just what this agenda hopes to achieve. Ask yourself just who benefits from the lines between men and women being blurred, from womanhood becoming something a male can identify in and out of, from male people having access all areas ? Just who ? Because it absolutely is not a thirteen year old girl.
Teenage girls are being told that the feelings of boys trump theirs, and trump their safety. They are being told that if they are not girly enough then maybe they aren’t girls at all, and should damage their bodies beyond recognition. They are being told that if they are black, and live in Africa, and want to avoid sexual harassment, then crushing their breasts as a way to achieve this is a Very Bad Thing. If they are white however, and live in London, and hate their growing bodies and the harassment that comes with that, then crushing their breasts is a good thing because “identity”.
They are being told that anal sex is something everyone does and that they absolutely should do this because all boys expect it. If it hurts just use more lube. Even though they haven’t even kissed a boy yet, they should remove all their pubic hair.
They are also being told that if that huge male person in the loo they have gone into alone is frightening, that they are unkind bigots, as that is a real woman. Because he says so.

This is all part of the same thing, it is the same old trampling of girls and women, but now dressed up as liberalism, tolerance, “kindness”.
I think 13 year old girls everywhere deserve a better deal than this, and I ponder on the motives of anyone saying the opposite.

I care.
Are there two posters called rowantrees on here btw?

The very act of using a disabled toilet when you are not disabled ( trans is not a disability or even a mental illness apparently any more) is abusing it.

+1 saying "I care."

I care, have always and will always care about the safety and security of transgender people.

Also, I care about the rights of all the women who feel the need for separate toilet spaces, including, for example, young girls and those who've had bad experiences with violence. I care about those involved with women's sports.

I support a 3rd space/3rd way. I don't support eroding women's spaces and rights. I am pleased for you OP that your life to date has meant you can have the views you have, but like PP's, I would respectfully (and in the spirit of love for all), ask you to please not to be so blasé about giving away the rights of women, long and hard won rights, although I recognize and applaud your wish to support trans people.

Please don't think, as others might (I have read all the posts here and some on the other boards), that expressing opinions like mine is transphobic. It really saddens and frightens me that expressing an opinion like mine could be construed in that way. I am not transphobic in any way whatsoever. I just want a solution that means everyone retains their rights (women) and gain the rights and security I believe they should obviously have (trans people).

I wish wanting full and fair rights for everyone could be seen and debated on its own merits. I realize how thorny the topic is. For example, in my opinion, having lived for a period (how long, I don't know) as the gender identified with, and being post-op, denying such fellow humans the rights to the toilets/spaces they want feels to me, discriminatory but who am I to draw the lines? I'm no expert.

At the same time, I wish we lived in a different world, one that doesn't care or discriminate as to what gender anyone identifies with. And having said all that, I find myself persuaded by the cogent arguments made by some biologists that sex is not gender.

So overall, I wish, as I think JK Rowling put it, for peace, prosperity and living your best life for every person. I also think surely in this, the year 2020, where most of us believe every person's right to health, wealth and happiness is the same as the next person's, can't we find a way for one group's sense of security to be added/enhanced without eroding another's? Maybe it's completely naive of me, but I wish dialogue between us all could lead to concrete proposals for everyone to get what they need and want to be happy.

Again anyone reading this who's going to put what I have said into the thought camp of being anti-trans, you couldn't be more wrong. I'd donate, march, write letters, offer any support I could, and do everything in my power to make sure trans people gain the rights they need to feel secure... I just hope we can find a way for that to be done without eroding women's rights in the process.

Peace.

@pertella you’re right, pro-women is a better way to classify it, but in fairness most people if asked to review this thread would instinctively conclude it was anti trans. The tone of the debate does it no favours on either side. I’m not some great trans supporter, but I’m just getting shouted down for suggesting any form of dialogue or looking for compromise. If the majority want to exclude TW from single sex spaces then that must be the way to go. But that should t mean we stop listening.

I’d say that someone who genuinely has trans issues and isn’t just in it for the mini skirts and the chance to perv in ladies toilets has a real need to use a disabled toilet in some circumstances

Why does any trans person have the right to go into a disabled toilet though?
That's for disabled people I'd have thought.

Are there two posters called rowantrees on here btw?

Yes. One is a well-respected and informative long-standing poster on Feminism Chat. I lurk a lot there but I have learnt a lot from her.

The other is the TWAW one who has just popped up on this thread.

Women aren't a big oppressed and beaten down blob.

No we aren't but the point about being sexualised and threatened by being alone with men reflects many women's experience. We don't necessarily become anxious because of these experiences but we become wary and wiser about how to avoid situations where we feel uncomfortable. The planning required to do that becomes second nature but is oppressive because it would be nice not to have to waste energy thinking about.

FWR is "feminism and women's rights". "female women" is tautological and unnecessary.

Yes. One is a well-respected

Christ
Non biased then
If we're going for biased viewpoints now - When new I used to read her posts and take them in but now just see as self appointed Wiki that reams off sheets and sheets that people take as gospel and never question.
Not everyone will be familiar with self appointed big shots.
Maybe just a similar name?
There's no law against it, we can have different names on here.