To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

Mumsnet is a strange place and doesn't represent the outside world.

In the 'outside world', most people are very tolerant of people dressing as they want, calling themselves what they want - but do not accept that someone can identify as whatever gender they want, regardless of how much or how little they've changed about themselves. The idea that anyone with a beard and a penis can say at any moment 'I am a woman', and that the rest of the world has to accept that, gets very short shrift in the 'outside world'.

@tyro I’m truly sorry that you’ve had that experience but I stand by my view that this isn’t a major issue for most of the population in the real world. It clearly helps some people to shout at each other on , but it doesn’t advance anything in RL.

CuriousaboutSamphire

The contradiction was in you saying that if trans women were bothered about women's feelings then they wouldn't use the women's toilets. But you seem ok with trans men using the men's toilets because their presence might make women feel uncomfortable.

So, you are acknowledging that trans men might make women feel uncomfortable in women's toilets, so they should use the men's toilets, but you don't think trans women who might make men uncomfortable should use the women's toilets? According to MN, men should just get over themselves and accept trans women. Why don't you think women should just get over themselves and accept trans men? Why do you think it's ok for your trans men friends to use men's toilets, if you consider them to be female?

Fortunately back in the actual world nobody is listening

Yes, all those poor women in rape refuges, homeless shelters, women's aid shelters, prisons, psychiatric wards, losing sport, etc. Fuck 'em though, right?

I care, because fthe flip side to unobtrusive trans sexuals (as I know that is a term many of the 'old school' Trans people prefer) using womens loo's and going about their lives without harming anyone, is the likes of Karen White, 'jessica' Yaniv, Davina Ayrton, Katie Dolatowski and on and on, including cretinous men installing covert recording equipment in 'gender neutral' toilets.

Anyone in support of Self ID, who believe the TWAW trope, please explain to me why the feelings of some men, trump the rights of all women to any space without them in it?

I don't think women's rights are taken seriously enough, nor are we doing enough to address the harm caused by gender stereotyping and expected behaviours/appearances associated with the sexes.
I do hope more people start listening to women's voices.

I wonder why the OP didn’t do a vote? I would have thought the thread title would have been perfect for a YABU/YANBU poll.

Of course any vote, judging by the 600 responses so far, would be heavily weighted towards the YABU answer, which presumably the OP didn’t want, but then this is Mumsnet I suppose, a website with 13 million mainly female unique visitors, so definitely not representative of the female population as a whole, right?

@Datun and that kind of contribution is why the ‘debate’ is pointless.

No @Hooves be more honest than that!

I actually said, quite clearly, that the transmen I know stopped using female facilities when it became obvious they were disturbance other women. I went on to say that TRA transwomen don't accord women the same courtesy.

How men react to trans people is up to them. I have no say in that accommodation, or lack of. That is up to men.

Which is why gender neutral spaces in addition to single sex spaces would be the obvious compromise.

And the argument eats itself yet again.

The point is that single sex spaces should be protected to ensure safeguarding. This trumps feelings.

Mumsnet is a strange place and doesn't represent the outside world.
Really? Have you read the comments under the latest news service articles such as The Times (or is it too biased too?)?

Most people I know have not thought of it past the 'people can dress how they want' point.

If you start to discuss sports, women's opportunities in employment and education, and ask if someone can biologically change sex and not just cosmetic surgery and artificial hormone levels - you might just find that you get an answer close to what you find on this thread.

Particularly if you explain that sex discrimination in the workplace becomes completely meaningless, even for industry awards for females going to transwomen who may have just transitioned and had never had to take time out for children or caring roles, and may have had access to better opportunities all throughout their life.

Mumsnet is a strange place and doesn't represent the outside world

What a way to try and silence women, eh? The biggest website in the country for women and you say the posters don't "represent the outside world."

Just coming on here to say what @Whatisthisfuckery said - why not do a poll?

I care. Mumsnet is only a bubble insofar as there are a large group of strong women here willing to call out how outrageous it is that men are able to decide whether women are entitled to feel safe or not. My view is that if there was a proper discussion in the mainstream media about the implications of self identification, or the arguments made by the TWAW lobby that disregard the very basics of biology, they would be very surprised that TWAW is a dominant “narrative”.

Oh, and I also offered an possible explanation as to why that difference exists.

But hey! Don't let an opportunity to obfuscate pass you by.

The core issue is not toilets, passing or who gets to be the fairest in the land.

The core issue is that there are differences between the sexes. Immutable ones. Written into every single cell of a body.

Nothing you can think can change that.

Pretending no otherwise has repercussions. And women have the right to say no to those repercussions.

exactly Winesalot. most people who dont know much about it, think its about being kind to a very small group of people who just want to live their lives quietly. They dont think TWAW is anything more than a slogan to prove that we're all nice and kind now. They also think we're talking about people who have had extensive surgery and hormones to "pass".

its not until you show them the stonewall definition of trans and explain the consequences of self ID i.e. that anyone is a woman if they say they are which makes the definition of woman meaningless that the penny starts to drop

I believe that is the term used as they are not considered male organs anymore. I have seen them described as 'ladydicks'.

Can these ladydicks be used to rape women?

Rowantree2020 but do you not think the toilets argument can also be extended to other single-sex facilities?
It's not really just about toilets, is it.

If you’ve ever been sexually assaulted, threatened or physically assaulted by a man you might feel differently

Speak for yourself
My ex was an abusive man , and yet I still abhor the transphobia on here

According to MN, men should just get over themselves and accept trans women. Why don't you think women should just get over themselves and accept trans men? Why do you think it's ok for your trans men friends to use men's toilets, if you consider them to be female

This

Can these ladydicks be used to rape women?

Their owners frequently threaten to do precisely that. Check out Twitter.

@thisisworsethananticipated

Screenshots pls?

LaureBerthaud yes because by the current notion of self identification and the breadth of the transumbrella published by the lobbyists, a male does not have to take hormones or have surgery so their penises are not affected by their self identification. Perhaps have a look at this link, it might be helpful.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Exactly.

Biological sex impacts us from birth. Regardless of harmful gender stereotypes, our lives are dictated by our reproductive systems and day to day it is women who have to weigh up that impact and work round it. It has taken centuries for women to achieve even the barest semblance of equal rights and autonomy. If that is under threat then I think women are entitled to analyse why and how it is happening when an ideological movement takes hold.

I agree.

If a man dressed as a woman in heels & a dress would be chased out of the Mens loos zombiemum doesn’t that mean it’s Male violence & attitudes that are the problem? Shouldn’t men be told to be kind and more accommodating?

Ahh! At last, someone's mentioned the elephant in the room. Why are women being asked to be 'reasonable and accepting' when men are not? But then, I actually don't think most men would have all that much of a problem with Transwomen using their loos since they apparently don't have a problem with Transmen being there! Please let's keep women's loos, and keep them just for women with female bodies.