To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

AGREED, OP. I've used shared/mixed toilet spaces for over 30 years without any hassle. It's not uncommon in lesbian or gay pubs, clubs, meeting places etc.
But you have a vocal minority on here who insist that transwomen are just men trying to trick their way into everyone's knickers.

How men react to trans people is up to them. I have no say in that accommodation, or lack of. That is up to men.

And yet I've seen the argument made repeatedly on MN that it is up to men to police the behaviour of other men. So, why shouldn't you, as a woman, be telling your friends how inappropriate it is for them to use opposite sex toilets? I mean, if you think it's wrong then you think it's wrong don't you, regardless of who is doing it?

No it’s not just about toilets, but as a topic it seems to dominate this site. But that’s ok. It’s good for people to have somewhere to vent their views.

But you have a vocal minority on here who insist that transwomen are just men trying to trick their way into everyone's knickers.

Actually, this is not true at all.

If my son was trans I wouldn't expect him to go into a male toilet in full make up, dress and heels. He'd be more likely to be sexually assaulted.

So how would opening up the womens toilets to any male who self IDs as a woman help?

Recognising that males are not and never will be females and vise versa is not transphobic!!!

Humans cannot change sex and sex is what the topic of this discussion.
It's simple fact and no amount of clown fish, mushrooms or Oyster references will change that fact.

No it’s not just about toilets, but as a topic it seems to dominate this site. But that’s ok. It’s good for people to have somewhere to vent their views.

Yes, why do the TRAs keep starting them?

If some men hadn't ever used the trans label to actually carry out some awful crimes against women then maybe there would be less suspicion of motives. But they did. They victimised both bio women and transwomen and made both groups defensive and feel vulnerable. It's not about assuming all (whatever) group is a threat because of that, it's about a managed response that safeguards both groups because the evidence suggests a necessity to do so.

I care.

I care too. Sorry Op, you don't get to just shut everyone else up because of your views.

Datun and that kind of contribution is why the ‘debate’ is pointless.

The debate's over. Fortunately.

Nice try, but I am not the Morality Police.

As I said, get your head out of the loos and see the wider issue.

There is no possible way to resolve all of the issues if there is no open discussion. And you can't have one of those if you stand on a lie and insist everyone lies along with you.

Clearly I don't have THE answer. I have ONE suggestion.

If TWAW is a true statement then there is nothing to lose by having a full, honest, public discussion and letting science and public opinion debate the whole sex/gender issue.

Until then stop trying to force women to aquiesce to something that makes many feel very uncomfortable at best, leaves them open to abuse at worst.

To correct a misconception below, I am Quite happy for transmen to use the ladies

Also quite happy to support greater provision of gender specific or gender neutral , sex none specific facilities to help transwomen and transmen

we know perfectly well that people use the toilet thing as strawman and then ignore all the other responses about refuges, prisons, changing rooms, women only shortlists, programmes to support women in an under represtened areas, male bodies in sport, women being replaced as a word by e.g. womxn but men staying, pregnant people, chest feeding and so on

im still waiting to be told how it is fair to allow a male bodied person to play rugby with women where they "fold them like deckchairs"

This whole argument highlights that transwomen are not women.

According to TRA logic:
Women should be forced to share spaces with bio males.

Transwomen should not be forced to share spaces with bio males.

If transwomen want to be seen as women, they need to live by their own rules for women

Have a read about this erosion of female spaces www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3160220-to-write-to-Women-s-Aid-and-ask-you-to-do-the-same-if-you-value-their-services

@datun there isn’t really a debate though is there. Just two heavily entrenched camps convinced of their views and unwilling to listen or compromise.

Hello?

Is there anybody in there?

Hello!!!

If TWAW is a true statement then there is nothing to lose by having a full, honest, public discussion and letting science and public opinion debate the whole sex/gender issue.

And just to add - bring on the longitudinal studies and fact based scientific and medical research that has been robustly peer reviewed to the fullest extent to prove that sex is non-binary and that trans rights do not negatively impact women's rights in ANY way shape or form.

I certainly would welcome this, I keep waiting for more than untested or robustly reviewed theories and postulations that Women's hard fought for rights will never be eroded.

Is it gynophobic that males dont want womxxn to have safety?

I don't care @princessconsuelabananahammock - they could identify as a trout for all I care

Ah you're just a troll then and not interested in any kids of sensible discussion or debate.

They could identify as a trout, I wouldn't care either since trouts don't want access to women's toilets, sports, refuges, changing rooms, prisons, wards etc.

there isn’t really a debate though is there. Just two heavily entrenched camps convinced of their views and unwilling to listen or compromise

Who was it that had the #nodebate slogan?

Who is it that doesn't want the compromise of 3rd spaces?

🤔

If my son was trans I wouldn't expect him to go into a male toilet in full make up, dress and heels. He'd be more likely to be sexually assaulted

Opening up the women's toilets to men who perceive themselves to be vulnerable to other men is not the answer is it. Unless you think it's ok for the risk of sexual assault to increase for women so that your son is safe from his own sex. Really that tells us everything we need to know. Women are at increased risk of sexual assault from men. That's why we have single sex provision.

datun there isn’t really a debate though is there. Just two heavily entrenched camps convinced of their views and unwilling to listen or compromise.

Said the person who just claimed how fortunate it was that no one was listening!

Honestly you couldn't make it up.