To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

I agree with you OP.
Mumsnet is a strange place and doesn't represent the outside world.

Trans isn't just male to female and unless you're about to check their genitals(that's if they've not had the op) how are you going to know ? If my son was trans I wouldn't expect him to go into a male toilet in full make up, dress and heels. He'd be more likely to be sexually assaulted.

Oh look people off MN think single-sex provision is important for a host of reasons. As do I.
www.wateraid.org/us/media/female-friendly-toilet-guide-wateraid-unicef?gclid=CjwKCAjw5Ij2BRBdEiwA0Frc9ST6GwZytVrWOcMhdFril36WqM2ZahmMldmCMRqrySyYDWlhxQHj5BoCDdEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Transmen are women. The transmen I know would probably pass as men most of the time, they use the men's loos, they have not been chased out by men.

They made a decision at some point, probably when they bothered women in women's loos. Something TRA transwomen don't seem to notice or care that they do.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. So, you think it's good that trans men use the men's toilets but it's wrong for trans women to use the women's toilets??

Surely, if you insist trans women should use the men's toilets then you must insist that trans men use the women's toilets. Have you told your friends that they are wrong and should use the toilets that match their sex?

Would they make women uncomfortable if they were in the women's toilets?

Well I care and don’t want a man in the loo next to me.

If I must share space with someone who looks like a man, I'd rather it was someone who was born and raised female

My point is, though if they look like a man and they're in the female toilet and are actually biologically female, how would you know in order to feel more comfortable as they're socially conditioned as a woman?
You'd just think "argh, man" not "they've been socially conditioned as a female so it's OK" - you wouldn't know!
You know, just fleetingly in passing in the ladies toilets, how does it get that in depth from their appearance?

Because hormones while they were in the womb meant they were in the wrong body completely at birth and were always a female, just 'assigned male at birth'..

Following on - if a scientist can theorise about this type of occurrence, it does mean that a small, but rapidly growing, minority really does mean single sex becomes meaningless.

Fortunately back in the actual world nobody is listening.

They clearly are listening though. It took a while for the general public to recognise what was going on. But the fact that TRA's rights are being rolled back shows that people in the real world are listening.

Fortunately back in the actual world nobody is listening.

That's funny - I find plenty of people in the real world are listening when I explain why I don't want to have to share spaces with my rapist.

Which is why we need to retain the right to query the presence of men in our spaces.

How does that work? You confront someone and they say they are a trans man. What then? They might be. Or they might be a biological man. How will you know?

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. So, you think it's good that trans men use the men's toilets but it's wrong for trans women to use the women's toilets??

Exactly - what?
Trans men can use the men's loo, but trans women can't use the women's toilets?
Think it'd work both ways....

Interestingly Liz Trruss has written to Baroness Nicholson today to confirm that women's rights to single sex spaces will be upheld when the government publishes their response to the consultation on the gender recognition act. So it's not just people on Mumsnet who have an interest it is actually happening in the real world as well.

Great post GinDaddy!
I care, for myself and my daughter about who uses women's spaces.

So much nonsense. You can’t choose to be a male or a female! You are a born a man or a woman - and that’s that. To think otherwise is a form of mental illness.

If I must share space with someone who looks like a man, I'd rather it was someone who was born and raised female.

Put in those stark terms it's really not a difficult question.

And how do you work out who is who?

trans women aren't men

What if they've got a penis?

Why is it a contradiction?

I don't care if men accept transmen. Transmen retain their female bodies, statistically smaller weaker, no matter how much surgery etc. Men make their own evaluation...

Just as transwomen retain their male bodies and women make theirs.

No contradiction. Well, not if you read it as typed rather than 'interpreting' it.

Maybe it's pedantic but this business of being assigned one sex or another at birth - at birth we are observed to have certain sex based characteristics which categorise us by current standards as male or female and these are backed up by DNA in the vast majority of cases. Assignment implies there was a choice at that point and a different assignment could be applied - which is not possible because an infant has no capacity to choose. Our biological sex is identified by particular biological and physical markers and any deviation from that can only be identified later as a person develops.

Interestingly Liz Trruss has written to Baroness Nicholson today to confirm that women's rights to single sex spaces will be upheld

Common sense indeed. In the real world as well 👍

Lemonade you're missing the point.

You're suggesting that if I see someone I initially read as male in the toilets, I can't possibly know what sex they are - and so I must accept the presence of male women because it's all just too hard for our pretty little vacant brains to deal with.

Sure, I might occasionally need to take a second glance, and there may be people whom I genuinely struggle to determine whether they're an adult woman or a teenage boy. This is not a good or valid reason to allow male people free access to female-only spaces; on the contrary, it's sounding like a fair reason to create separate toilets for trans people.

We'd get a lot further in this discussion if you'd be honest about what your argument is.

LaureBerthaud I believe that is the term used as they are not considered male organs anymore. I have seen them described as 'ladydicks'.

If a man dressed as a woman in heels & a dress would be chased out of the Mens loos zombiemum doesn’t that mean it’s Male violence & attitudes that are the problem? Shouldn’t men be told to be kind and more accommodating?

Men not challenging a transman does not mean that that female passes as a man. All it tells you is the men feel no reason to challenge.

I certainly agree that in the wider world there is nothing like the amount of debate that happens on twitter, mumsnet etc, until you actually start asking people about what they think defines someone's sex, is it their inner feelings, or is it their physical characteristics.
I think the overwhelming majority of people agree that the rights of trans people are human rights, but still that sex-based rights are vital, especially for vulnerable women and girls, and personal identity should not override those rights.

trans women aren't men

They are biological males. No matter how they identify they cannot change their sex. Not possible.