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Babies stranded in Ukraine

202 replies

Scissor · 15/05/2020 19:05

Just watched the footage on C4. Really not comfortable with any of this. Staff, hospital etc all looking very gowned up, lots of cots in a big space all very clean and hygienic looking but newborn babies with no , and I mean zero, opportunities for attachment ??
This is looking very strange to me.

OP posts:
FannyCann · 17/05/2020 23:27

OneMomentInHistory

Cambodia has clamped down and criminalised the pregnant women that are stuck with a baby they can't afford that they never wanted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001bpp

Babies stranded in Ukraine
OhHolyJesus · 18/05/2020 10:47

I looked into some other media coverage at the weekend and thought I would post this, my bolding -if this wasn't already commercial -labelled as supposed altruistic - surrogacy, with no legal consequences, then what the hell will happen with commercial surrogacy in the UK?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/01/couples-paying-60000-surrogates-despite-uk-system-reasonable/

Couples are paying up to £60,000 for babies born via surrogate mothers despite a ban on commercial surrogacy, a study has found.
The UK’s “altruistic” system means surrogates may be reimbursed only “reasonable expenses”, which experts say should cost families no more than £12,000.
However, the world’s largest fertility conference heard that British courts routinely sign off costs of far greater value if they can be persuaded the child is going to a good home.
The survey of 177 sets of parents by the University of Kent showed that the largest group - 30 per cent - paid between £20,000 to 30,000 during the surrogacy process, while 25 per cent paid between £10,000 and £15,000, and 21 per cent paid £15,000 to £20,000.
Meanwhile seven per cent paid up to £40,000, and in five cases couples paid up to £60,000.
The law does not set a limit for “reasonable expenses”, however cash transactions are supposed to be scrutinised by judges when they make parental orders, the process that transfers legal parenthood from the surrogate to the intended parents.

Five couples paid up to £60,000, according to a study
Natalie Smith, from Surrogacy UK, which campaigns against commercialisation, told the European Society for Reproduction and Embryology annual meeting the current system gives courts “wiggle room”.
“The welfare of the child trumps everything, so that if someone does pay more than reasonable expenses the judge does have some flexibility," she said.
According to parents who responded to the survey, the maximum they took home was £25,000, indicating that significant legal, medical and other costs are involved.
Meanwhile surrogates who responded said they were never paid more than £20,000.
However, the large sums will fuel fears that total surrogacy prices are heading towards US levels, where the profit motive is allowed.

Commercial surrogacy is banned in the UK
Norman Wells, from the Family Education Trust, said: "It is difficult to see how the commercialisation of reproduction can ever be in the best interests of the child.
"It is adults who control the market and therefore it will always be adults who stand to gain from it.”

Surrogacy UK is one of a number of organisations campaigning for a change in UK’s 30-year-old law following a six-fold increase in legal applications linked to the process, from 55 in 2007 to 316 in 2016.
It wants intended parents to be recognised as the legal parents from the moment of birth, so they can make crucial decisions regarding their child’s healthcare
.
Currently it takes an average of between six and 12 months for courts to grant parental orders.

MitziK · 18/05/2020 11:12

Something has occurred to me in relation to people who have struggled with infertility and had IVF/have had their embryo implanted into a surrogate.

Surrogacy - the womb is unrelated to the egg/sperm/embryo, they provided the embryo/egg/sperm, therefore it's theirs.

IVF by donor - the womb is unrelated to the egg/sperm/embryo, they provided the womb, therefore it's theirs.

Surrogacy with donor - the womb is unrelated to the egg/sperm/embryo, they sourced the egg/sperm/embryo, therefore it's theirs.

Whilst the situations are completely contradictory, it seems to me that the actual reasoning can boil down to whoever pays the bills is the owner.

ChattyLion · 18/05/2020 11:18

It is really brilliant to have articles exploring the situation. But groups with concerns about this go far beyond tiny Christian charities with a socially conservative political agenda. I wonder why the paper chose to quote them in particular?

It just makes it easier for the majority who have never paid this much attention to assume any concerns about this practice are somehow ‘fringe’ or come from a specific political place, which is really misleading. A lot of people of all political backgrounds are concerned once they hear about it.

Glowcat · 18/05/2020 11:37

I’ve read articles before about the surrogacy market in India. Vast economic inequalities mean the rich can use the desperately poor as incubators. The money is life changing for the women involved. There have been more ‘celebrities’ openly admitting to using surrogates. It’s been labelled as homophobic to have concerns about surrogacy where men buy eggs from one source and rent a different womb to carry the pregnancy. The right to have a child apparently trumps any concerns about the welfare of the women involved. The babies become a commodity and there have been cases where the prospective parents have refused ‘faulty’ goods. Using someone’s body in exchange for money and treating children as commodities doesn’t sit well with me.

Celerysam · 18/05/2020 11:53

I'm really intrigued if those against surrogacy have faced infertility ablnd have babies of their own? I think if you didn't struggle to have a child or have to accept life without one then it's much easier to view surrogacy as a terrible thing.

I think it needs very tightly regulating but if a woman is willing to do it and is not coreced and she profits or us reimbursed and a couple get a baby from it then I understand how that can work.

FannyCann · 18/05/2020 11:59

Good point Chatty

growinggreyer · 18/05/2020 12:00

@Celerysam, so you believe that it is fine for a woman to sell her baby. That is a weird belief, if you write it that way. Why can't women sell older children?

Glowcat · 18/05/2020 12:01

The money is a coercion when you’re living in desperate poverty. If someone in England offers to be a surrogate for reimbursement of expenses it’s a different kettle of fish. I do believe that no one has a right to have a baby.

OhHolyJesus · 18/05/2020 12:13

Glowcat I haven't looked into the author, Sheela Saravanan but she explains a bit about her book and her research in India in this video.

www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=4Y9DTt8QtUg

One woman who had 5 embryos inserted, had foetal reduction (an inadequate term) down to 2, she bled a lot and was in intensive care. And this perspective that woman actually didn't benefit financially at all, they can't work so they can end up worse than before!

Glowcat · 18/05/2020 12:30

That’s the other thing about UK surrogates. If something goes wrong the NHS is there to provide free (at point of use) medical care and we have a welfare system. Pregnancy and birth can cause life long health issues.

OhHolyJesus · 18/05/2020 13:15

I think that sort of covered in the MP letter Glow , well about the costs to the NHS anyway, which I share again in case you missed it.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/05/15/ask-your-mp-to-take-action-on-the-law-commissions-surrogacy-proposals/

For UK surrogate mothers I would hope that any medical treatment for say a prolapse or incontinence would be paid for by the commissioning parents but I expect that once they have their baby all payments cease.

I realise some maintain relationships afterwards though so I don't know how you manage that and not feel any resentment if your quality of life is affect. If you have your fertility impacted or have any major health issues after the birth and handover I can imagine how possible it would be to fall into a depression and self-blame.

But no one does a study on that do they?

Glowcat · 18/05/2020 14:45

I don’t care about the cost to the NHS - we all pay in. I’m thinking of those in other countries who don’t have access to free healthcare.

OhHolyJesus · 18/05/2020 15:18

Fair enough. It would certainly be an issue for those who have no free healthcare and are in countries with high maternal death.

Any pregnancy where it's not your egg would be high risk.

OneMomentInHistory · 18/05/2020 18:31

@FannyCann thanks, I'm a bit behind on this. I wish I could say I'm surprised that they've chosen to criminalise the women involved but unfortunately I'm not.

BeetrootRocks · 19/05/2020 01:15

Was just chatting to DH about proposed changes to UK law. He had no idea about it and was WTF that's awful.

Why are these big things being put through without more visibility?

I think we all know the answer but it's shit tbh.

FannyCann · 19/05/2020 06:57

@BeetrootRocks there are some useful insights in this thread (not meaning my own - other posters).

Surrogacy Consultation - Update www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3855758-Surrogacy-Consultation-Update

FannyCann · 19/05/2020 07:01

PaleBlueMoonlight summed it up as Invisible Women at institutional level.

"It is just like the GRA, there is an assumption that this is a niche issue just affecting those advocating for a change in legislation. It is "Invisible Women" at institutional level - failing to see women as a human grouping with the right not to be expoited. They are not necessarily failing to see the exploitation, just putting at the bottom of the list of things that are important. Women and their unique biology are not valued."

HeretoThereandBackAgain · 19/05/2020 07:42

Anyone who has given a baby or older child up for adoption, was it easy to do so? I mean in the practical sense, rather than emotional.

I know a couple of people who wanted to do so, but were basically laughed at and told not to be so silly. Both are typically middle class women. One had an abortion, the other had the child. She takes good care of her son, but is very honest to her friends about how she doesn’t enjoy any of it, doesn’t love him and is just going through the motions. She freely admits she wishes she could have given him up for adoption, but she had no guidance or backing to do so.

I’d never really thought much about it, but if her experience is typical, I do think the process should be made much easier.

FannyCann · 19/05/2020 08:04

Hereto

In my experience from a midwife perspective I think it can be very easy although obviously I have never been involved in the social work/legal side and clearly there are procedures...

But if a baby is rejected at birth the mother can walk right out of the hospital and SS step in. I have known that happen.

I suspect if you approach SS in advance of the birth, especially if there are no obvious reasons why a person would be an unsuitable mother, that there is probably quite a lot of pressure to keep the baby/anti adoption stance.

FannyCann · 19/05/2020 08:06

So I'm not surprised at the experiences you mentioned Hereto.

OhHolyJesus · 19/05/2020 10:17

Banning surrogacy is not fair apparently.

"We had to re-mortgage our house to do surrogacy, all our savings went on IVF and all of those things and we literally didn't have a penny. We went to the ends of the earth to get the money for surrogacy because it was our only way," she said.

"Ivana is an amazing woman, and there is no denying that by being a surrogate she does get to help her family and she does get financially paid for it," she said.

So she knows she is buying a baby but to be fair she had a relationship with the surrogate mother which has been in other cases prevented by the matching service, they actively discourage contact between CPs and SMs.

www.herald.ie/news/surrogacy-ban-would-not-be-fair-mum-of-twins-born-in-ukraine-39212275.html

As the date of this was the weekend just gone the webinar must be this coming Saturday:

"Cathy is campaigning to have surrogacy recognised under Irish law and will be at Ireland's first surrogacy webinar this Saturday on nisig.com, hosted by the National Infertility Support and Information Group (NISG)."

Something else from Ireland:

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/ukraine-images-spark-new-surrogacy-law-calls/

"While the Department of Foreign Affairs has been praised for offering support to Irish parents trying to get to Ukraine, Growing Families says countries such as France, Spain, China, Poland and Germany are refusing to assist their citizens with diplomatic requests to travel, as they do not support surrogacy as a route to parenthood.
Legislation enacted this month has banned the use of anonymous gamete donation by fertility clinics. It also provides a legal framework for registering the births of those children. However, it does not touch on surrogacy."

...and people say we can't ban it in the UK. Why is it banned in other civilised countries then?

OhHolyJesus · 19/05/2020 14:34

Something slightly more balanced from Marie Claire.

www.marieclaire.com/health-fitness/a32433196/surrogacy-covid-19-ukraine/

"When we last spoke with Olena, she had not yet been paid. The 34-year-old has chosen to stay in Kiev, more than a hundred miles from her family, paying for an apartment out of her own pocket, waiting for her payment and to sign documents to signal the end of the process. Olena, connected to Marie Claire through BioTexCom, did not voice any worries about when she might receive payment, saying, "I completely trust the clinic, and if they said it will be this way, it will be this way.”

What's the betting that if BioTexCom goes bust the SMs will be the last on the list?

ChattyLion · 20/05/2020 23:03

Oh no I had not even thought of that, what would happen if these agencies went bust? Presumably they have all had to stop taking on any new clients since the pandemic started.

Proudboomer · 20/05/2020 23:22

Barrie Drewitt Barlow already has 5 children born via surrogacy with his husband Tony but now has ditched Tony but still living with him and won’t divorce him and “in love” with Scott the 25 year old ex boyfriend of his adult daughter and yet another surrogate child is on its way.

Just shows money can buy you anything No matter how fucked up a life you lead. Oh and don’t forget good old Barrie runs his own surrogacy agency.

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