Babies stranded in Ukraine

[Scissor]

Just watched the footage on C4. Really not comfortable with any of this. Staff, hospital etc all looking very gowned up, lots of cots in a big space all very clean and hygienic looking but newborn babies with no , and I mean zero, opportunities for attachment ??
This is looking very strange to me.

I wish I knew the solution

Ban it, and ban your citizens from buying a baby abroad.

Buying humans is wrong, no matter how small they are.

It's the reality of the fertility business that pretty much anyone who has enough money can acquire a newborn baby. They may not be genetically related or have carried the baby but pretty much anyone can take delivery of one.

It was truly awful, baby trafficking in every way.
And that "lawyer" interviewed who facilitates the process.
I was taken how alike the babies all looked though, almost clones !

That shot of the ward full of babies lying in their cots .... its allowed in the Ukraine because under their law the baby belongs to the parents who pay for them from birth, not the birth mother.
Someone's making money out of this (looks at English "lawyer" promoting the scheme) .

I’ve literally just finished an attachment awareness course and as others have said babies give up the need to cry if they receive no attention. A newborn is communicating with their caregiver by crying for a feed or change etc but they very quickly learn there’s no point if they’re just left.

This is so incredibly sad, the only winners here are the money makers.

See, I am not totally against surrogacy. If you do it for a friend or family and you generally feel that you want to help, or even anonymously, it's fine, if you proof to me it's done as an altruistic act of kindness.

But the situation in Ukraine does highlight that it is an industry... as someone said up thread a bit like puppy farming. You want a baby... here is my price and I will deliver it to you. I also think the link ohidontgetit posted will give you some background as to how these babies came to be.... very disturbing. 3 eggs implanted... all 3 take... oh customer only wanted one baby, preferably boy/ girl ... words fail me!

I think if my sister or close friend needed a surrogate, I would do it for them.

The problem is altruistic surrogacy is the top of the same iceberg that has the (much larger group) exploited women below the surface - it's all one system so as far as I'm concerned it should all be banned.

@ducksback

"There is nothing conservative about being anti surrogacy or anti porn - it is about proetecting the vulnerable from exploitation."

I bet you pro-lifers say the exact same thing. There's nothing conservative about being anti-abortion, it's about protecting those poor and vulnerable babies.

I am anti exploitation. But the way to do this isn't to take away every women's right to do porn or be a surrogate if she wants to. It's to more tightly regulate the industries so no ones forced/coerced into it. Not to police women's bodies and prevent them doing what they want with them.

"There is nothing conservative about being anti surrogacy or anti porn - it is about proetecting the vulnerable from exploitation."

I bet you pro-lifers say the exact same thing. There's nothing conservative about being anti-abortion, it's about protecting those poor and vulnerable babies.

Massive false equivalence - the first quote is against exploitation. The second is exploitation.

@@fudge@ fudge brownie2019

"From the moment I was pregnant with my DC a bond began, I imagine it's probably the same for many other women."

Just because many women feel this way doesn't mean every woman should and those who don't shouldn't be shamed for it. The majority of surrogates know what they're getting into going into this and don't feel bonded with the baby. They don't consider themselves the mother, just someone helping out with the development until the baby can go to it's real parents.

"The people who have brought them did so because they wanted a shiny newborn not a child with attachemnet issues as so often seen in children who have been adopted, if they didnt consider this an obstacle then they would have chosen this route. "

This is an entirely wrong assumption. Many people who use surrogates have already tried the adoption route but been turned down for various petty reasons. Or seen adoptions fall through which is heartbreaking when you think you're finally going to have a child and then don't. Or simply want to feel the generic bond to a child. Not because they want a shiny newborn, you have a very callous view of desperate people suffering with infertility.

@treestumpsandtrampolines

My point is no one ever thinks their opinion is conservative or recognises that it's just their personal discomfort with something, they always think they're protecting vulnerable people.

Some posters on Mumsnet need to look at third wave feminism, particularly regarding prostitution and porn. Just because some women are are being exploited (and we should do everything we can to put a stop to this) doesn't mean every woman who does it is, to many it is empowering.

Remember the earthquake in India and sell the men flying out the get the 'babies to safety' no mention of what happened to the mothers.

I am also against surrogacy.

The only equivalence of surrogacy and abortion is that some see women as no more than a vessel.

Pregnancy and childbirth come with multiple risks.

This is rarely mentioned in the public discourse.

That is another parallel with the anti abortion crew. The risks of pregnancy and childbirth are invisibilised/ ignored.

anothernamechangeagain

I would obviously have a problem if only the mother turned up too. Just like if a woman turned up alone at a hospital to give birth because the father was too busy elsewhere but this is worse because presumably they have been through a lot to get to the point of their baby being delivered (in Ukraine). It is careless of something very precious. "Would you pick up a baby for me while you're there?"

I have never heard of anyone being turned down for adoption and then choosing surrogacy. Got any receipts? @forgetmeyes

And a feminism which centres men isn't feminism, whatever you might wish to believe.

@clymene

There are many stories, go have a look for yourself.

This isn't feminism that centres men. Plenty of women use porn too you know?

I know women who enjoy making porn so much that they shoot amateur scenes and post them online, they take requests too.

Similarly escorts who select their clients and set their own rates, they enjoy it, consider it easy money, and laugh at the desperate men who fund their luxuries.

Just because you can't imagine ever wanting to or enjoying doing it doesn't mean no one does.

?
This thread isn't about porn.
The other poster asked for receipts about it being common to go the surrogacy route after being turned down for adoption.
The response is, go away and Google happy porn stars and prostitutes.

Interesting.

I am against all surrogacy,and let’s be honest,there is no such thing as altruistic surrogacy. Yes it may be termed as such because the legal process is a bit different,but anything which can result in up to £15k of expenses isn’t an act of altruism.Who here spent 15 grand on being pregnant?

And how many acts of so-called altruistic surrogacy happen because a friend or family member feels under some kind of obligation to offer.

It amazes me that we talk in strong terms about puppy farming and buying puppies and kittens off gumtree and the like,but when it becomes about babies there is inevitably someone who pops up who will say “if you’ve never been through infertility then you have no idea what it’s like”to justify the practice,and that is how it is able to carry on.

And the difference between choosing to star in porn or be a prostitute and being a surrogate is that in the former two examples, while it often is exploitative, you are the one making the decision to sell your body. Whereas with surrogacy there is an innocent child who had no choice about becoming someone’s commodity.

Once you are making decisions and choices for other people it no longer is about you

Plenty of women in the UK have their babies taken away for weeks at a time and handed over to men whom they have warned the courts are violent and should only have supervised contact. Their concerns are not taken seriously and they are threatened with prison if they don't hand their children over to their violent ex-partner. Happened to me and my son has suffered hugely as a result. We need to stop pretending it's only other countries that treat children as unfeeling commodities.

People can fight for change in both areas.

I doubt people who don't agree with surrogacy don't care about the issues with the family courts.

The main issue there really is there are regular news items about the family courts fucking up, the secrecy etc while the vast majority of press stories about surrogacy are positive.

There’s also a thread on this in Feminism Chat if anyone wants to be on both www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3909725-Ukraine-surrogacy-trade?watched=1&msgid=96577096#96577096

I still really can't understand how it's illegal to fly to another country and buy a chunk of liver from someone for a transplant, but it's perfectly fine (and empowering!) to buy the whole human.

How can any place with anti-slavery laws (which I thought was most countries by now) say that you can't sell an adult, but it's perfectly fine to sell a baby?

@forgetmeyes you should not be flamed, adoption & commercial surrogacy are not the same

Reading this & the articles makes me feel quite sick that tiny babies are not being loved

I'm sitting with my blessed baby on my knee and can't imagine her not being loved & cuddled

I'm not a fan of surrogacy at all, but most of the babies are the biological child of a couple who can't have their own, and who've simply rented a womb.

The BBC report on the same issue showed the babies being cuddled as well as sleeping on the nurses, and one of the nurses was saying how sorry she felt for the babies. In the long run I think they'll all be ok.