AIBU - partner wants me to stop speaking Italian with my mum

[countrywalks1]

AIBU? Me and my partner have been staying at my mum's flat because of covid issues. She told me after 2 days here that she feels it's rude that I speak Italian with mum in front of her as she doesn't know what's going on and doesn't understand the language. I replied saying I understand it must be frustrating not to know, especially as she's the kind of person who likes to know everything, and the pandemic is really tough on her as she's homesick and hasn't been home properly for months, so I can understand why as she says she feels excluded.

However, my counterpoint was that I usually (about 60%) talk with mum in Italian. Culturally, I would say I'm half British and half Italian - I've mostly grown up in the UK but was born and most of my extended family are and live in Italy. I speak Italian fluently, but if I don't speak it regularly it gets a bit worse as I get out of practice with tenses and conjugations etc.

So I speak Italian with my mum because: 1) for me it's the language we've always communicated; 2) it makes me feel more connected with my Italian culture; 3) it pleases me to practice it; 4) I'm pretty sure my mum prefers talking to me in Italian than in English as she doesn't really get to speak it with anyone after my granddad (her dad) passed away a few years ago as did my very bilingually fluent brother. It's complicated I know!!!!

So told this to my partner, she says she appreciates the reasoning but still unnecessary to speak it when she's there as it feels she's excluded. I told her I understand why but I struggle to understand why she couldn't move past it as I've been in the same situation with friends speaking a language I don't understand where I just talk English when I can, or ask what's going on. The other thing is that usually my mum will save talking to me in Italian for mum things like telling me off or telling me to do something. I emphasised that we're never using it to talk about her or be nasty, and we kind of slip into it naturally.

Still she says she feels excluded, which at this point I understand. She was also in my opinion a bit nasty and in anger said we moved over here to the UK and chose to stay so we shouldn't really be talking Italian anymore anyway, we should be British. This I put down to anger that I wasn't understanding her point of view. In her defence she did also say I could speak it if I taught her Italian, although I struggle that the emphasis is on me to teach her when we have been together for 8 years and even gone over to visit my Italian relatives in Italy and been to weddings etc - without ever having tried to learn. Albeit we've been doing vocational education together throughout this time so many other important things to learn.

So last night I worked really hard to make sure I spoke only in English with everyone, so when mum asked me something in Italian I actively made sure to reply in English.

I just need to know AIBU in feeling disappointed? I understand my partner's frustration, and I can try to cut down on the Italian for a little while because of the circumstances - it's tough being homesick and then not even being able to understand the conversation where you are. It's just the request that I cut down on speaking Italian with my mum when she's also there - as I told her, I expect that I will always see mum with her (we're planning on getting married). I also feel that she's asking me to hide away (in the context of communicating with mum) a little part of my own culture. Therefore, AIBU to not let this lie?

I'm amazed at all the people who think that learning a language to conversational level is so straightforward. I don't know anyone who has learnt a language as an adult to get to that level without living in a country where the language is spoken

Yet the OPs mother, who did learn as an adult, is not only expected to understand the language fully: she is also expected never ever to use her own in a situation where the dp might overhear.

Why is there an unsurmountable difficulty in the dp doing the much lesser job of learning basic comprehension skill, but perfectly ok to expect an older lady to be able to express everything she might want to say to her daughter in a foreign language?

The dp doesn't need conversational fluence- no one is asking her to speak Italian to her MIL! All she needs is to be able to get the gist of what the other two are saying. There is no reason to believe the MIL is not making the effort to speak English to her. But the point is: it is an effort, and at the moment, all the effort is on one side.

Could anyone please confirm that you would have the same expectations of a Brit living in another country? Not only would they have to speak Thai or Portuguese or whatever to their partner at all times, but they would not even be allowed to speak English to a visiting relative?

I'm amazed at all the people who think that learning a language to conversational level is so straightforward.

Has anyone actual said those exact words ? The general thrust has been the OPs DP could have eased a lot of their grumbles about feeling excluded from conversations after 8 years by picking a little bit of Italian up. Maybe not even ever having to speak it, but at least get the jist of a conversation.

I'm quite happy to stand by what I said. After 8 years the OPs DP must have worked really really really hard to avoid learning a single word. And they clearly have absolutely no intention of starting now.

All that posters have written about it being "rude" to talk in another language in front of someone who doesn't speak that language is correct - as far as it goes. But surely in a relationship (maybe this would have been better in that forum ?) things change somewhat. The OP could have reworded their post as "After 8 years my DP hasn't learned a word of my language and gets cross when I speak it" which might have solicited a different character of reply.

The fact that the OPs DPs suggested "fix" is not that they learn Italian (obviously, why waste the 8 years they have spent avoiding it at all costs ?) but that the OP stops speaking Italian to their own mother really speaks volumes (in English only, of course).

Sorry about the awful typos above: need new glasses.

Could anyone please confirm that you would have the same expectations of a Brit living in another country?

It's been an international law since the world began that the entire world should speak English.

Sorry, SPEAK ENGLISH !

It's embarrassing at best, and close to racist at worse.

The OP's partner doesn't have to learn to speak Italian fluently. She could learn a little of the language and then he and his mum could speak more slowly so she can follow the conversation and join in occasionally. If she doesn't have enough language to say what she wants, she can say it in English and the OP could translate for her, though the impression I get is that his mum does speak English.

I have a close friend who fell for a Frenchman whilst in France for the third year of her French degree, and they've now been married for 25 years and they have 4 DC,. We went over for a big celebration of their anniversary. My DH and DDs don't speak French and my friend's DH doesn't speak English. So I speak to her and her DH in French sometimes, and whilst when he isn't part of the conversation, she chats to us in English, and if he is part of the conversation, she or I will translate.

It can be a challenge switching between 2 languages. On one occasion, I found myself asking DD2 (8) if she'd like a cup of tea in French! . My DH tries his O Level French occasionally, enough to talk to my friend's DH, and my friend and I translate as needed.

The OP should be translating for his partner. It's a hassle, but it gets easier, and it will help his partner learn the language at least a bit.

The OP should be translating for his partner. It's a hassle, but it gets easier, and it will help his partner learn the language at least a bit.

That would have made sense 3 - maybe 6 - months in.

I know it's a bit like a broken record, but 8 years ...

It's clearly never going to happen.

However, the OP shouldn't be expected to translate all the time, that isn't what I meant. That would be draining. He should be able to speak to his mum without his partner always having to know what they're talking about.

In my friend's case, her DH hasn't learned any English and her parents haven't learned any French, which I do think is a shame (French people are similar to British people in that way.)

@DGRossetti I agree. I confess that I do find it a bit ridiculous that my friend's DH hasn't tried to learn English (although to be fair he doesn't complain when she speaks English with their DC). I wonder if in the OP's case, he made any effort to translate early on?

@countrywalks1 - YABU
It starts with your first sentence - Me and my partner - my partner and I... so it indicates a lot about your attitude, which tbf, doesnt improve a lot by reading your post.

I am multilingual. So I get it. If I dont speak one of the languages, it becomes a bit rusty, but it is not like I completely forget it!

Your mum speaks English, she probably could do with some practice as well.
Your partner doesnt speak Italian, only English. Probably she is not the only one. Brits are not good at learning any languages, never been never will. Tbh, never needed to.
What have you done to encourage your partner to learn / improve her Italian?
I know it takes two to tango, but try to discuss half-way with her and she is planning to do to get there.

What have you done to encourage your partner to learn / improve her Italian?

In 8 years, what has the DP done to try and learn ?

Why is there an unsurmountable difficulty in the dp doing the much lesser job of learning basic comprehension skill, but perfectly ok to expect an older lady to be able to express everything she might want to say to her daughter in a foreign language?
The OP has been here since he or she was a child. His or her mum has lived here all that time, and can speak English - she already speaks English with OP 40% of the time. She learned English because she was surrounded by English speakers and needed to learn in order to communicate with anybody outside her family. English is the first foreign language in Italian schools, and is the international language, so she will have been familiar with it when she arrived in the UK. She was an adult at that point, but not elderly or mentally impaired, so is likely to have picked it up well enough for a normal conversation.

OP's partner is unlikely to have learned Italian in school. Italian is not an international language. As her potential MIL speaks English, the only reason OP's partner might normally need Italian at all is when visiting Italy - and even then, as her partner speaks Italian, it's not absolutely necessary.

expect an older lady to be able to express everything she might want to say to her daughter in a foreign language?
Also, no-one is saying that OP's mother should speak English with her child when the partner is not there.

If the post had been something like

'My DC and partner moved into my flat a couple of days ago (I'm supposed to be shielding as I've had cancer). We're English and her partner is French speaking. He has just informed my daughter that from now on, we are not allowed to speak to one another in English and we have to speak French all the time so he can understand what is going on, I live in Provence and my French is good, as is my daughter's, but he says we're in France so we have no business speaking English in the house whilst he's here. He has always refused to learn English unless DD taught him, but she's not a language teacher and, tbh, I think if he really meant it, he would have taken a few courses at some point within the last 8 years.

AIBU to want to speak to my daughter in my own home in our own language? Obviously, when it's something that is actually to do with him, like whether he'd like a coffee, I'd use French, but when I'm asking her to wrap her tampons up before putting them in the bin, I'd rather use my own language and not his.

I might also prefer to use my own language to ask her if she's sure this man is really Mr Right but that's neither here nor there. He doesn't know that, but I reckon he suspects something is up or he wouldn't be quite so angry about it

Would the OP have been told that speaking French at home was compulsory and using English was arrogant/ignorant/unkind?

@MitziK all my friends are doing that if parent is alone with child they speak their native language and if they are together they all speak the common one. So everyone can be included in the conversation. That's just normal

@MitziK - nope - she would have been told to keep an eye on her daughter because her partner is a controlling, abusive fuckwit and she should be running a mile!!!

from now on, we are not allowed to speak to one another in X language is nothing like she says she feels excluded.

when I'm asking her to wrap her tampons up before putting them in the bin, I'd rather use my own language and not his
I taught my bilingual kids that it's bad manners to deliberately speak in someone's presence in a language they don't understand, specifically so that they don't know what you're saying. I also taught them that if at any point you break that rule, they will 100% turn out to have understood it after all! (Speaking from experience )

If I had something private and embarrassing to say, I would say it in private. No need to change language to hide it.

Quite frankly if there are only three of you there and you are conversing with each other over meals or all evening in Italian I think that is pretty rude as you are shutting her out completely.
I grew up abroad and when I first got there before I learned the language I felt like a permanent outcast, I was only a child and nobody spoke to me. It was isolating and degrading and I became completely shut down, nobody noticed or cared.
By all means speak to your mother in Italian some of the time but if you asked you GF to be there during lockdown it doesn't hurt to include her in some of the conversation.

I taught my bilingual kids that it's bad manners to deliberately speak in someone's presence in a language they don't understand, specifically so that they don't know what you're saying.

I wonder what the etiquette is (if any) when you do understand the language that people are speaking in front of (or behind) you, and it's obvious the participants aren't aware ?

I wonder what the etiquette is (if any) when you do understand the language that people are speaking in front of (or behind) you, and it's obvious the participants aren't aware ?
I've had this quite a lot. Once, in an English-speaking place, two Germans in front us - one said to the other in German "Now we can speak German and no-one will understand us" - we looked at each other in silence then quickly walked away!
Another time, I was chatting to a friend in English about bras and bosoms, and a German man standing nearby started making a horrible leering face, as if it was hilarious that we didn't know he could understand. But actually, we would have happily had the same conversation in German.
Or there was the time I was at Amsterdam airport, and the passport man said to his colleague in Dutch "Funny: he's German, she's British and they're flying from the Netherlands to the US". I just smiled, and he added "...and she speaks Dutch!" with a big grin.

I know that English people have complained that Welsh people switch from English to Welsh to deliberately exclude them. I've never been sure whether that's actually what happens or whether they're being over sensitive about it.

I've felt excluded myself in the past at the dinner table when no one even makes any attempt to include me. But it's likely that I've been guilty of it too.

Another factor is that it's actually easy to forget that a language you understand is gobbledygook to people who don't. That happens with my friends in France. Or if someone has some grasp of the language, it's possible to forget that they need you to speak slowly.

It's a good idea to speak up in that situation, politely. 'I didn't understand that, could you please speak more slowly?' Or 'Could you translate for me please?'

Not if it's two people talking privately of course, but around a dinner table that's quite legitimate, as it is rude to exclude others.

It is rude

I haven't read the entire thread. I grew up in an English speaking country with Italian parents. We mostly spoke Italian at home. My parents always lived in a high Italian speaking area and most of their friends were Italian speaking. Even after living more than 50 years in the area, their English is limited. They got by. My English speaking husband has never raised the fact that we converse in Italian. It has never bothered him. In fact, he has encouraged our children to learn the language.
Also, I totally agree with you in respect to 'losing' the language if not spoken regularly.
I say speak to your mum in Italian and if she feels that left out tell her to learn the language.

I know that English people have complained that Welsh people switch from English to Welsh to deliberately exclude them. I've never been sure whether that's actually what happens or whether they're being over sensitive about it.

Sadly you can't really mention that, as it seems that even in Wales, Welsh speakers are expected if not required to speak English, judging from previous discussions on MN. Of course, mysteriously, it's never rude for an English person to refuse to learn Welsh when moving to Wales, since that isn't how it works.

I used to love quietly sitting on the tube picking out conversations and words ...

Meh - i was leaning towards agreeing with your partner until the "you came over here you should be British".
And then i wondered where she stands on Brexit.
It is rude to exclude people from conversation, sure, but saying something like that aligns you with Nigel Fucking Farage so in your case i'd be inclined to rethink my whole relationship.