Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not download the contact tracing app

320 replies

Ghostlyglow · 02/05/2020 19:53

When it becomes available. How many people will?

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 02/05/2020 23:20

For those saying no. What would you like to see instead? How do we get out of this mess?

Well indeed. And this is why it's important not to misuse data or show contempt for data protection legislation.

Because if you get someone employed in 10 Downing Street who has a history of using dubiously acquired data in non-transparent ways (Cummings), or has a brother (Marc Warner, brother of Cummings' mate in Downing St, Ben) who starts an artificial intelligence company (Faculty) and gets government contracts to use our data, then we the public may stop trusting the government with personal data.

And you get the current mess, where technology could possibly help but people are weighing that against expected misuse.

UK government using confidential patient data in coronavirus response
Exclusive: Documents seen by Guardian show tech firms using information to build ‘Covid-19 datastore’
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/uk-government-using-confidential-patient-data-in-coronavirus-response

BeetrootRocks · 02/05/2020 23:23

I always switch my Bluetooth off when not using it.
I don't use it for much.
Saves battery.
And also when it came out there were issues with unsolicited pics from random men, it was a thing in the news. I got into the habit of switching off. Sure that issue is fixed now but I just don't want to have it on all the time. I switch my data and net off when not using as well.

I still can't understand how it can be secure but simultaneously share enough data to contact all people you've been near.

Also, living in London, won't I be constantly told I've been near someone who developed symptoms?

LilacTree1 · 02/05/2020 23:24

The people hired to do contact tracing for confirmed cases - call me old fashioned - seems like a much better plan, this has been used in other countries as well as tech.

I think we are hiring those in the UK?

It’s actually got terrible potential to keep people locked up for ages though, my preference was definitely a Sweden style approach and before anyone says it, yes, I know you think I’m killing everyone.

LilacTree1 · 02/05/2020 23:26

X post Beetroot

“ Also, living in London, won't I be constantly told I've been near someone who developed symptoms?”

Exactly. We’ve already got elderly people on my tower block who are scared the lifts will be closed in a deliberate attempt to keep them in.

If the government had handled this with an ounce of common sense, there might be more take up, but they haven’t. I don’t have a smartphone anyway. But it sounds like battery is a big problem.

Freddiefox · 02/05/2020 23:33

@PerkingFaintly

Thanks for the link. I understand the Government backhander, and to be honest it’s no real surprise. Disgusting yes but no surprise.

What I feel I’m missing is what could they do with all the other information? And what’s the benefit of them having it?

I feel I’m being extremely naive here so would be interested in opinions, but lots of private companies have info about me. Siri listens to the conversations I have and tailors the adverts I receive. Google track which websites I use, and Tesco know lots about me. How would this be any different.

CastleCrasher · 02/05/2020 23:34

I'm happy to be tracked. Google maps runs constantly on my phone, and god knows how many other apps that also use location data. Even pre lockdown, my journeys are basically, home-work-family-shops. I don't give a shiny shit if they know I go to Tesco on a Saturday or whatever. Anyway, bloody Alexa can probably tell them more and she stays in the house!

JaniceBattersby · 02/05/2020 23:35

I have big concerns about privacy and I really don’t like the idea of the data being used for purpose I’ve not consented to. That said, it’s a pandemic, so I’ll put my worries aside and download the app for the greater good. It could genuinely save lives.

PerkingFaintly · 02/05/2020 23:42

FreddieFox, this is what I posted on another thread, because it's a reasonable summary. BTW, I can't tell you whether to download this app or not! You may decide that, on balance, there's a benefit that's worth it.

The more data an organisation has on you, the better it can profile you, know your want, needs and emotional reactions, the better to manipulate you.

For example, this is what Cambridge Analytica did with data.

(CA happen to have been hired by the pro-Brexit campaign and Trump campaign – but they could as easily have been hired by the opposition. And anyway, other organisations can do the same tricks.)

Cambridge Analytica: how did it turn clicks into votes?
www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/06/cambridge-analytica-how-turn-clicks-into-votes-christopher-wylie

Cambridge Analytica could, Wylie says, craft adverts no one else could: a neurotic, extroverted and agreeable Democrat could be targeted with a radically different message than an emotionally stable, introverted, intellectual one, each designed to suppress their voting intention – even if the same messages, swapped around, would have the opposite effect .

Wylie brings up the anodyne political statement that a candidate is in favour of jobs. “Jobs in the economy is a good example because it’s a meaningless message. Everyone’s pro-jobs in the economy. So in that sense, using just the message of ‘I am in favour of jobs in the economy’, or ‘I have a plan to fix jobs in the economy’, you cannot differentiate yourself from your opponent.

“But one of the things that we found was that actually when you unpack what is a job for different people, different people engage with constructs with different motivations and value sets that are interrelated with their dispositions.”

What that means in practice is that the same blandishment can be dressed up in different language for different personalities, creating the impression of a candidate who connects with voters on an emotional level. “If you’re talking to a conscientious person” – one who ranks highly on the C part of the Ocean model – “you talk about the opportunity to succeed and the responsibility that a job gives you. If it’s an open person, you talk about the opportunity to grow as a person. Talk to a neurotic person, and you emphasise the security that it gives to my family.”

Thanks to the networked nature of modern campaigning, in theory all these messages can be delivered simultaneously to different groups.

Polkadotties · 02/05/2020 23:43

I will download it. My Bluetooth is always on anyway, Apple Watch connected to phone.

onlinelinda · 02/05/2020 23:45

I can't see it would be useful if you'd had cv already. So no.

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2020 00:02

For the app to be useful to suppress CV, the take-up will have to be 60% of the population, ie 80% of smartphone users. www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52442754

It's not unlikely that what will happen is as follows.

We don't get a take-up rate high enough for CV control.

But we do get a take-up rate high enough to model movements and personal associations of particular profiles of people, and these models derived from the data will be kept and used for other things.

The data from the app would be particularly powerful if tied to other data, eg medical, Facebook, DWP, etc. That's how Cambridge Analytica knew who to microtarget: they combined datasets to build universes of similarly-behaved people.

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2020 00:09

BTW, I hate that I'm saying all this. I'd really, really like to have this technological help to control CV.

It's just... well, you don't need a database to reel out that old MN favourite: the best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour. And this government has already made several attempts at grabbing govt data since he got into Downing St.

This one a few weeks after Cummings got in the door.

No 10 request for user data from government website sparks alarm
Privacy campaigners question urgency of move and motives of PM and Dominic Cummings
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/10/no-10-request-user-data-government-website-sparks-alarm

ICO to probe government over Gov.uk data collection plan
www.computerweekly.com/news/252470591/ICO-to-probe-government-over-Govuk-data-collection-plan

This one just now, in April.

Why should the UK pensions watchdog be able to spy on your internet activities? Same reason as the Environment Agency and many more
Extraordinary surveillance powers set to be injected into govt orgs
www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/23/uk_snoopers_charter_sequel/

LilacTree1 · 03/05/2020 00:10

Now India are trying to make it compulsory

uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-app/india-orders-coronavirus-tracing-app-for-all-workers-idUKKBN22E07K

Slippery slope. Say no.

flashbac · 03/05/2020 00:14

"I never understand why normal everyday people would care about the government knowing what they do. What do you think they can do with this information? How can it harm you?"
So,
You don't fear hacking, stalking, malign government forces (Dominic Cummings anyone?), You don't come from a minority that's been persecuted etc.
How can you be so trustful?

Crunchymum · 03/05/2020 00:25

I'm a complete and utter dinosaur so not sure how it works.

Is it a case of me (having the app) and getting ill a week after going to Sainsburys, then the app tells everyone else with the app (who was in Sainsburys a week ago) that they've been exposed?

Crunchymum · 03/05/2020 00:27

But absolutely no fucking way in Hell am I downloading this app.

BeetrootRocks · 03/05/2020 00:42

Crunchy that sounds like what happens so if you live somewhere crowded and get symptoms that means potentially loads of people getting a warning and what, staying in for 2 weeks?

Does it then track those who were in contact with the ones who were contacted? Then cities will be permanently closed down!

Can anyone tell me how the Bluetooth thing works? So as far as I knew it said hello I'm X device, and the other one said hello I'm X device. No personal info of the users shared. I doubt there is a national database of whatever the Bluetooth hello codes are for everyone in the UK! So how does it work?

Anyone?

Ah presumably you have to give your personal details and Bluetooth ID when you register? That is a lot of info. And does mean govt can track you if they wished.

I suppose people who want the app but don't want to be tracked could have a second phone...

Given Cummings involvement and the link upthread about the company I'm not confident plus there have been loads of data loss from govt.

That combined with all the practical issues (loads of people switch Bluetooth off, and plenty dont have smartphones or take them everywhere or keep them switched on) plus the cities issue.. it sounds good but I think it's nonsense tbh. I think it sounds good and like they're doing something...

This plus end to cash would be a dream for certain people.

Mimishimi · 03/05/2020 00:53

No way!!

Barryisland · 03/05/2020 01:13

No.
I dont trust the government to use my information safely and confidentially.
I dont trust people in general to report ‘symptoms’ sensibly. Everyone seems to have covid symptoms even tho they usually have exactly the same symptoms every year whether from hay fever/ flu/ colds etc.
Also there will be arses that log they have symptoms just for the fun of making others panic / stay at home etc.

So no no and no again.

Frankiefree · 03/05/2020 01:14

I got infected with Covid and started to feel unwell about 6 weeks ago, only feeling better the last couple of days. How would the app work for me?

Leaannb · 03/05/2020 01:21

@BeetrootRocks.....The App would be useless on a second phone. The App would have to track you to work

BeetrootRocks · 03/05/2020 01:24

?

I mean you'd have the tracker on your smartphone and have a second phone that wasn't tracked. For your clandestine activities.

LilacTree1 · 03/05/2020 01:30

Frankie if you’ve had it, I don’t think it’s any use at all for you.

HeyHoLetsGoAgain · 03/05/2020 01:31

Frankiefree
The app would be of use to you if your first episode of the virus did not make you immune.

Easilyanxious · 03/05/2020 01:33

I would if it would help if I was to become ill to trace others who I have been near
I don't card about government knowing where I am as I'm sure my trips to work and b & m etc aren't going to excite them too much
Bit of an app would help keep spread of it down then I'm all for it

Swipe left for the next trending thread