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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not download the contact tracing app

320 replies

Ghostlyglow · 02/05/2020 19:53

When it becomes available. How many people will?

OP posts:
LilacTree1 · 03/05/2020 23:26

Fluffy very funny.

Mimishimi · 04/05/2020 02:07

You do realise there have literally been millions of people in history who have done nothing to warrant being tracked/surveilled/executed etc but if someone wants to turn on you and your group, that's all they need to start doing.

BelfastNonBlonde · 04/05/2020 05:43

Probably not.

NerdImmunity · 04/05/2020 12:26

Definitely will. If I've been in contact with a covid positive person then I sure as hell want to know about it so I don't inadvertently spread it to my colleagues, family and elderly neighbours I support. The app sounds like a means to that end. I also dont live a particularly exciting or criminal life so I'm not bothered about my location being tracked. As it stands, this app will likely know less about me as a person than google, Facebook and many other seemingly "non invasive" apps I already have on my phone.

minettechatouette · 04/05/2020 12:30

Yeah, I'm also not keen on the government being able to track my movement. It's a big step up from private companies being able to do this (as private companies aren't responsible for law enforcement, and don't have the backing of the police etc).

minettechatouette · 04/05/2020 12:43

Also - obviously South Korea has made incredible progress since the atrocities of the 80s and before but (1) this wasn't that long ago (and there are still people who took part in the Gwangju massacre in the 'establishment') and (2) it still jails union leaders and people suspected of spreading propaganda for North Korea. It's not a beacon of free speech. Personally I don't think that the fact that the South Korean government tracks its citizens' movements is a great argument for allowing our government to track our movements.

minettechatouette · 04/05/2020 12:59

Also, to those saying that they don't see what the problem with government surveillance is, some of the issues might be:

The government (or police - who are in constitutional terms one of the 'enforcers' of government power) decides that it will be easier to fight crime if they watch the kind of people who commit crime and wait until crimes are committed. Certain groups in society - eg lower income, ethnic minorities - find themselves under surveillance, which puts them under psychological strain and affects their freedom of movement, because they are accosted by police when going about their business. They are effectively deprived of the right to be considered innocent until they are found guilty. At the same time, the fact that the police do sometimes catch criminals this way means that disproportionate numbers of the surveilled groups find themselves prosecuted for crime. Numbers of poorer people/ethnic minorities find themselves imprisoned. Prejudice against these groups goes up, because there is a perception that the surveillance against them is justified.

The ability to surveille individuals also tempts the police/government into monitoring the activities who are not acting illegally but who do have an anti-government or potentially disruptive agenda: protesters against government policy, environmental activists, union members. Again, these people find that the surveillance has a measurable impact on their lives in terms of being approached by police etc. There is a sense that if you put a toe out of line and you are in one of these groups you will be pounced on with the full force of the law. This disinclines people to take the risk of belonging to these groups. This has a chilling effect on freedom of speech and association.

With enormous amounts of data available the government are able to selectively publish information on socially undesirable activity or crimes undertaken by members of groups they don't like - whether political groups or entire demographics, thus manipulating public perception against them and whipping up hatred.

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2020 15:14

Thanks DGR.

That whole letter is worth reading, but here's an extract:

It has been reported that NHSX is discussing an approach which records centrally the de-anonymised ID of someone who is infected and also the IDs of all those with whom the infected person has been in contact. This facility would enable (via mission creep) a form of surveillance. Echoing the letter signed by 300 international leading researchers, we note that it is vital that, when we come out of the current crisis, we have not created a tool that enables data collection on the population, or on targeted sections of society, for surveillance. Thus, solutions which allow reconstructing invasive information about individuals must be fully justified. Such invasive information can include the "social graph" of who someone has physically met over a period of time. With access to the social graph, a bad actor (state, private sector, or hacker) could spy on citizens' real-world activities. We are particularly unnerved by a declaration that such a social graph is indeed aimed for by NHSX.

We understand that the current proposed design is intended to meet the requirements set out by the public health teams, but we have seen conflicting advice from different groups about how much data the public health teams need. We hold that the usual data protection principles should apply: collect the minimum data necessary to achieve the objective of the application. We hold it is vital that if you are to build the necessary trust in the application the level of data being collected is justified publicly by the public health teams demonstrating why this is truly necessary rather than simply the easiest way, or a "nice to have", given the dangers involved and invasive nature of the technology.

We welcome the NHSX commitment to transparency, and in particular Matthew Gould's commitment made to the Science & Technology committee on 28 April that the data protection impact assessment (DPIA) for the contact tracing application will be published. We are calling on NHSX to publish the DPIA immediately, rather than just before deployment, to enable (a) public debate about its implications and (b) public scrutiny of the security and privacy safeguards put in place.

We are also asking NHSX to, at a minimum, publicly commit that there will not be a database or databases, regardless of what controls are put in place, that would allow de-anonymization of users of its system, other than those self reporting as infected, to enable the data to be used for building, for example, social graphs.

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2020 15:19

That excerpt's from the original letter by scientists and researchers in information security and privacy, dated 29 April:
drive.google.com/file/d/1uB4LcQHMVP-oLzIIHA9SjKj1uMd3erGu/view

It's also quoted in DGR's article:
Privacy experts express serious concern at NHSX COVID-19 contact tracing app
A letter signed by over a hundred privacy experts and academics following a meeting of the Parliamentary Science and Technology Committee as they debate the app, has been published with almost 200 signatories
www.computing.co.uk/news/4014602/privacy-experts-express-concern-nhsx-covid-19-contact-tracing-app

DGRossetti · 04/05/2020 15:22

Even if I had an open mind, the fact that SERCO and/or G4S are involved would be reason enough to steer well clear ...

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2020 15:25

The last paragraph sums up one of the issues: it doesn't matter what you write down on bits of paper as regulation; the only way to ensure a database is not used for nefarious purpose X, is not to build a database where that purpose is possible.

Sometimes this means not collecting certain data in the first place; other times it means designing the database so the data can't be machine-analysed en masse in certain ways (but individual files can still be accessed one by one).

PerkingFaintly · 04/05/2020 15:29

I would still love there to be technological assistance to Track, Trace & Isolate, and I'd willingly temporarily give up some privacy for this.

But we need it to be got right. Otherwise the "cure" could end up worse than the disease.

DGRossetti · 04/05/2020 15:32

I'm fucked if I am going to give this shitshow of incompetents anything for free, but they really should have started with an idea of what degree of penetration would be needed by this app to make it in any way useful, and worked backwards from that.

But as we know from tests, and the like, numbers and facts aren't really their strong point, so much as slogans and soundbites.

pumpkinbump · 06/05/2020 00:36

I'll download it. I don't really care about being tracked. I'm not planing on murdering anyone until the lockdown is well and truly over and they have found a vaccine.

LilacTree1 · 06/05/2020 10:44

Pumpkin “ I'm not planing on murdering anyone until the lockdown is well and truly over and they have found a vaccine.”

Well, that’s poor planning. The laws that have been brought in suspend the protections we had post Shipman. If you want to commit murder, how’s the time!

SnackSizeRaisin · 06/05/2020 14:28

Not everyone needs to download it for it to be effective. There will be no compulsion. Even if you do download it you can always delete it if you want to do something secretly.
For those few that have stalker exes obviously it would not be a good idea to get this , but that won't make any difference to its overall effectiveness.
Currently there's no prospect of the data being used for anything other than anonymous surveillance.
I do think there's a bit of confusion around the term surveillance, which has a slightly different meaning in public health than in everyday speech

LilacTree1 · 06/05/2020 18:55

I’m now hearing the phone has to be permanently unlocked for it to work?

And you get an alert when people ha e symptoms, then if they don’t test positive, you get another one to update you.

If this is true, it’s an absolute shower of shite.

SerendipityJane · 06/05/2020 19:00

I’m now hearing the phone has to be permanently unlocked for it to work?

Apple have slipped Boris and chums a few quid to try and boost the sales of iPhones.

This way, the need to replace all the stolen ones will help them pay out their next shareholder bonus.

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