to let my children play in the garden?

[SlightlyHassled]

Our neighbours have complained about the noise caused by my two boys in our garden. They are age 10 and 7.

They were playing very happily (Top Trumps, as it happens) at the end of the garden furthest away from the house (and the neighbours' house) while I was indoors. I heard one of the neighbours shout, 'Oi!' but since I didn't hear anything else, I didn't think anything of it. A few minutes later, one of the neighbours yelled my name, then the other did. As I was indoors, and my boys were still playing happily, I just ignored it. A few minutes later one of them came round to say we were too loud and they were unhappy about it. He said I was reading aloud to the children and that he and his wife could hear every word. (I had been reading aloud to my children in the same part of the garden earlier in the afternoon but I wasn't doing so at the point when they complained. I don't think I was doing so any louder than the volume you'd use for a normal conversation.)

I don't think the problem is really me reading to the children. I think the problem is general noise. They have complained to us before on a number occasions about our noisy children. They are retired and don't have grandchildren, and there aren't a lot of other children living near us, so ours are the ones making all the noise that they hear. We also home educate and our boys are around and outdoors in the daytime more than the average children. We do lots of our structured lessons in the garden, and the neighbours have previously said they don't have a problem with us doing "quiet learning" out there. We don't have a TV and don't use electronic devices much, so our children do a lot of playing outdoors. It's been a long-standing problem, though the neighbours have complained about noise from indoors too. (We are two halves of a semi with only a thin wall between, and we have very echoey acoustics in our kitchen, and an open-plan layout downstairs.)

There isn't any goodwill on their part because they think we don't care and do nothing. The wife told us once she should be able to read a book in her garden at 6pm without hearing our children. They wrote to us once complaining about the noise, and complaining that we never told our children to be quiet. For the next 3 days, I did nothing different from normal but I made a note of every time I asked the boys to be quieter because of the neighbours. I did so 35-40 times a day (!), and that was pretty typical of what I was doing before they complained. We wrote back to the neighbours explaining that, but never had a response.

They don't wake up until 8.30am, and when they complained about noise from the garden before that, we stopped letting the boys out of doors until after 9am, and stopped eating breakfast in the garden. When the neighbours complained about noise from indoors, we spent £500 on sound insulation boards to go against our party wall. Unfortunately when we put the first one up, DS1 and I had an allergic reaction to something in it, and we had to take it off the wall and throw them away. We did tell the neighbours about that.

With garden noise, we always bring the children indoors as soon as they start fighting or stropping or screaming. I understand that people don't want to listen to bickering from over the fence (something else the neighbours have complained about in the past).
My children aren't especially quiet, but I don't think they're especially noisy either. My parents are always telling me how much quieter they are than my brother's 4 boys, for example.

If they're not behaving in an antisocial manner, I think it's fine for my children to be playing in their own garden and that I shouldn't be constantly on their case to play indoors, or to play with hushed voices. AIBU?

Of course no one can stop you letting your children play in the garden, but if it's all day every day I'm glad I don't live next door.

It is tricky sometimes and give and take.

If you've got paper thin walls and are outside each day, and ordinarily homeschool, there's literally no where your neighbours can escape the noise on a day to day basis. Your DC aren't out at school for 6 hours a day when it is quiet. It does sound like you are trying to be quieter though.

However, some neighbours are arseholes. I grew up next to one - and we were definitely not noisy children. After one departed this world, the other started having bridge parties. She came round to apologize for the noise (normal conversational noise, like they'd complained about), and my DM said it had been lovely to hear people having a nice time. It was like the penny had finally dropped. No complaints after that.

Carry on as normal. People complaining about children making noise are so weird - do they think because they're younger human beings they have a right to control what they do?

In my pre-children days, I would get home frazzled from teaching other people's children in very earthy, not-leafy schools, and the best way to defuse before evening chores like dinner then the marking was to go out and tend to my small but beautiful garden.
Except there was a childminder over the back fence so all day every day the sounds of ride-on toys scraping on the brick paving, shrieking, crying. I knew the names of particularly annoying children because they were called out so often.
But it was not my place to harrass the neighbour about it. It was a regulated occupation, and just tough luck for me that her livelihood contradicted my vision for my garden as a place of rest and recharge.

It's unfair to police people for normal behaviour.

I'd assume that OP is telling the children to be quiet so often because of paronoia that they are disturbing the neighbours.

The warm sunshine this week has bought out the neighbours adult children and their stereo of wailing contemporary music. Not ideal, but they spend less time out there than my DCs so I just don't hang around too long while that's going on, and supervise from the conservatory rather than the full blast of the music.

My elderly (self-isolating) neighbours fortunately like observing our family grow since babyhood. And fortunately the other side has DS's fellow football crazy classmate so that's the direction for the mutual ball exchange.

In the face of normal behaviour and normal hours, live and let live is the best way to get by even if there are irritations along the way. You can't police other people, only your reaction to them.

“DS2 was in a particularly bad patch and screaming a lot”

I bet this happens a lot more than you’d ever admit to here and telling them to be quiet 30-40 times in a DAY wasn’t because you were paranoid but because you were aware of the noise they make.

I notice a lot of parents completely tune out their loud children in public spaces. You will see strangers staring at them waiting to discipline the screeching and they are completely oblivious to it.

I suspect you’re obvious to it and when you were being “paranoid” you were actually listening from the neighbour’s perspective.

It must be hell for these retired people to never be able to enjoy their outdoor space - not even during the school year - because your children are ALWAYS out there making noise.

I’m surprised they haven’t started the leaf blower every time you start your home learning and give you a taste of your own medicine.

You sound like a really gentle soul, just reading about the other neighbour shouting in your face makes me so mad. It may be time to just let your children play and if anyone says anything to you let them have both barrels. No more beating about the bush.

Ignore and don't engage. Make sure your kids behave respectfully and maybe keep them in after half 5 so your neighbours have their quiet reading time.

This is a really hard one to call.

It’s possibly they are being unreasonable

It’s also possibly your children are far noisier than you realise!

But you sound kind and considerate and are looking to ways to make things better.

I would carry on- as you say, they play the radio, have BBQs, living side by side requires a lot of tolerance. If you wanted to be kind you could keep the children in one portion of the day (early morning, or after 7 at night) and let them know, but I don't think you are obliged to do that at all. Their expectations are unreasonable- you can't complain about someone else reading aloud in their own garden, hardly an all night party.

I don’t understand the attitude that families with children always trump the needs of families without children. We should all be allowed to have some peaceful times in our garden

That exactly. If those complainants were in their garden from 12h, cutting trees, music on all day, watching their TV outside, etc...people would scream they were being antisocial but when it is their darling children, everyone have to bow to them because they are innocent little darlings who can't help being annoying.

We can hear our neighbours and they can hear us in the garden. Surely that’s normal in non detached houses? We don’t make a thing of it and neither do they. We hear kids laughing, some crying, usually just games etc.
I find it bizarre that your neighbours are making such a fuss about nothing.

I am glad I don't have your neighbours - they sound miserable! (I do have a neighbour who loves drumming however, there's a house nearby having building work done, and people further down the road who sometimes play music - but that's what you get if you live in suburbia). If your children were constantly shouting or screaming, or out very early or very late, they might be justified in complaining - but that's not the case.

OP it doesn't sound awful

But

Atm with isolation, are your children EVER inside for an hour?

It might not be ideal for you but why can't they have an hour playing with a game inside? You are sounding suspiciously crunchy & making a point about it. It's quite normal for children to enjoy an activity indoors as well as out you know.

They could paint at the kitchen table after lunch or do some play do, or read stories inside.

It's like you think they should never be indoors.

Next time they come over look them straight in the eye and say ‘I have every right to enjoy my garden. My children are not being excessively noisy. You are miserable and cantankerous and if you cannot learn to become more tolerant, regardless of your age, I want nothing more to do with you. Never knock on my door with a noise complaint again’ and close the fucking door.

I thank god for my lovely neighbours - both sets.

I think waiting until 9 is a good idea. Perhaps 10 at weekends.

No screaming. Unless someone is injured. Its irritating and unnecessary.

Otherwise they sound like moaners.

What does your dh think?

Hmmm I’m a bit on the fence for this. I completely understand that your children should be allowed out in the garden and of course there will be noise, it does sound like they are out there from quite early until late most days. As others have said, you homeschool so this is a daily occurrence and there is no break for your neighbours.
There really should be a bit of give and take, you shouldn’t get to monopolise outside play because you have children.
My neighbour puts her 2 children in the garden from when they wake which is sometimes 7am and they are screamers, which means no lie ins for us at a weekend if they are up. They are that noisy that if I do sit out to read I can’t even hear myself think. I have 2 children of my own so I get it but I can’t stand them being loud either so I bring them in to calm down if needed

I think they are bullies and because you have bent over backwards to be accommodating now think they can get away with anything.

I think as horrible as it is, you need to politely stand your ground that playing reasonably in the garden (reading a book FFS!) is something you and your children are entitled to do in their home. So whilst you are sorry they feel upset, you won’t be stopping using your garden.

It’s your home, it’s your garden. Of course the dc can play out

Your neighbours are bonkers, I tell you this lockdown has already driven some mad!

They don't wake up until 8.30am, and when they complained about noise from the garden before that, we stopped letting the boys out of doors until after 9am, and stopped eating breakfast in the garden

Letting them in the garden before 8.30am was unreasonable but you've addressed that. I think it's fine to let them use the garden, especially at the moment. They need to be outdoors and getting vitamin D and exercise.

They sound like mardy bullies that think children shouldn't be seen or heard. Do what you want. Have breakfast in the garden. So long as its within normal waking hours and normal family noise do as you want. I.e not playing drums at 10pm.

If you stop adjusting for them then they'll stop pestering you. They know comlalinjng works, they'll keep doing it until you're all silent all the time. If they want to share spaces with other families then they need to buy a more secluded home.

i think the grown up thing to do would be to, say, not let your children be noisy in the garden after 7pm and over lunchtime (say from 12 until 2) which is the norm in lots of European countries.

It does sound to me as though you're so used to your children you don't notice the noise, but i do agree that children should be allowed to play in their gardens. I also agree that sitting in your garden of an evening reading is something the neighbours should also be able to enjoy.

If i could hear a neighbour at the bottom of their garden reading to their children I'd probably ask them to pipe down after half an hour or so. That's definitely something you can do inside.

In short - talk to the neighbours and reach a compromise that you can all live with

Playing outside is fine as long as they don't yell at the tops of their voices like my neighbour's daughter feels the need to do. She's several houses down the road at the back, and I can hear her in the front of my house without the window open.

I think the key here is that you homeschool so they don't ever get that respite. Would it hurt you to be inside for a couple of hours in the afternoon. Lockdown or not nobody needs to be in their garden 12 hours a day. Presumably you also take them out lots normally. I think the conditions at the moment are causing people to be a bit irrational. However just think ahead to 20 years. Would you be happy to live next door to yourself once your dc have down the nest.

How quiet are your neighbours? In my neighbourhood it is often the retired that are the noisiest with lawnmowers, shredders and pressure washers on the go as well as lots of bonfires.

Our next door neighbour's kids DO have screaming matches. I couldn't care less - kids need to be out and they make noise. Life is short.