to let my children play in the garden?

[SlightlyHassled]

Our neighbours have complained about the noise caused by my two boys in our garden. They are age 10 and 7.

They were playing very happily (Top Trumps, as it happens) at the end of the garden furthest away from the house (and the neighbours' house) while I was indoors. I heard one of the neighbours shout, 'Oi!' but since I didn't hear anything else, I didn't think anything of it. A few minutes later, one of the neighbours yelled my name, then the other did. As I was indoors, and my boys were still playing happily, I just ignored it. A few minutes later one of them came round to say we were too loud and they were unhappy about it. He said I was reading aloud to the children and that he and his wife could hear every word. (I had been reading aloud to my children in the same part of the garden earlier in the afternoon but I wasn't doing so at the point when they complained. I don't think I was doing so any louder than the volume you'd use for a normal conversation.)

I don't think the problem is really me reading to the children. I think the problem is general noise. They have complained to us before on a number occasions about our noisy children. They are retired and don't have grandchildren, and there aren't a lot of other children living near us, so ours are the ones making all the noise that they hear. We also home educate and our boys are around and outdoors in the daytime more than the average children. We do lots of our structured lessons in the garden, and the neighbours have previously said they don't have a problem with us doing "quiet learning" out there. We don't have a TV and don't use electronic devices much, so our children do a lot of playing outdoors. It's been a long-standing problem, though the neighbours have complained about noise from indoors too. (We are two halves of a semi with only a thin wall between, and we have very echoey acoustics in our kitchen, and an open-plan layout downstairs.)

There isn't any goodwill on their part because they think we don't care and do nothing. The wife told us once she should be able to read a book in her garden at 6pm without hearing our children. They wrote to us once complaining about the noise, and complaining that we never told our children to be quiet. For the next 3 days, I did nothing different from normal but I made a note of every time I asked the boys to be quieter because of the neighbours. I did so 35-40 times a day (!), and that was pretty typical of what I was doing before they complained. We wrote back to the neighbours explaining that, but never had a response.

They don't wake up until 8.30am, and when they complained about noise from the garden before that, we stopped letting the boys out of doors until after 9am, and stopped eating breakfast in the garden. When the neighbours complained about noise from indoors, we spent £500 on sound insulation boards to go against our party wall. Unfortunately when we put the first one up, DS1 and I had an allergic reaction to something in it, and we had to take it off the wall and throw them away. We did tell the neighbours about that.

With garden noise, we always bring the children indoors as soon as they start fighting or stropping or screaming. I understand that people don't want to listen to bickering from over the fence (something else the neighbours have complained about in the past).
My children aren't especially quiet, but I don't think they're especially noisy either. My parents are always telling me how much quieter they are than my brother's 4 boys, for example.

If they're not behaving in an antisocial manner, I think it's fine for my children to be playing in their own garden and that I shouldn't be constantly on their case to play indoors, or to play with hushed voices. AIBU?

The reading aloud would irritate me tbh.

Why? Unless it's "Story of O" or similar, why would that be a problem?

And people saying that if OP has to tell her kids 40 times to be quiet, that they must be too loud - perhaps OP is just now over-sensitive to any noise her boys make and is jumping on them as soon as they start.

The children of our near neighbours have been out making a racket, too - I'd rather they weren't but they are young children, and they need to play and let off steam. Happily they aren't screeching - just shouting and laughing, so it's liveable with.

Kids are kids - they are unable to get rid of their surplus energy the way they normally could - it's bound to come out somewhere. I think your neighbours need to learn to give and take OP.

I’d say you are making too much noise, it’s one thing kids playing in a garden, but it must be quite annoying for the neighbours to be in their garden and clearly be able to hear you reading aloud to your kids from across the fence - do that inside.

It does sound as if your neighbours are unreasonable.

Children make a noise when playing... though pointless screaming/loud arguing/remorseless kicking of fence should be 'parented' other sounds are just how things are.

You sound to be doing much to be considerate. Trying to keep your neighbours happy all day looks impossible. I don't think that you should have to be so extreme.

If you wanted to do a smaller thing that might have a bigger effect , could you establish a regular 'rest hour' at an agreed set time?

In this you could promise that your family would make a HUGE effort to make no disturbing noise for a set time.

If your neighbours knew when this was - they could relax and enjoy it ... with the hope that they might perhaps be more accepting of general sounds at other times of day and less of a bother to you? (Well - it is a thing to try anyway :) )

Why are you not bringing them in after having to tell them a second time? No wonder the neighbours are cross if you have to speak to them that many times and nothing changes.

The thing is you could be minimising the noise because they’re your kids and you’re used to it. As others have said you home school, it doesn’t sound like your kids are actually in the house for any length of time at the moment so there is absolutely no escape for your neighbours. However it does sound like they’re being overly precious about the noise. Normal levels of children playing are fine. The only time I’ve actually complained about children was in our old house when a family of 7+ moved into a 2 bed bungalow next door. The children were feral and would constantly bang on the wall / fence, scream, throw rocks and stones at the fence and our windows, hang out the windows screaming. It was a living hell.

If you truly think the noise levels are not bothersome then you need to stand up for yourself. It seems like you’ve tried to appease them at every mention of noise so you probably appear a bit of a pushover so they feel they can walk over you.

The neighbours do play a radio out in their garden sometimes but I've never commented to them about it. Their cat also uses one of our flower beds as a toilet, and their bi-weekly BBQ blows horrible smoke straight into the children's bedroom (they use some weird stuff to light it with) - but those are normal things to happen in gardens, so I wouldn't complain.
Maybe start complaining, every single time. It might make them think. Chuck the cat shit back over the fence, every time the radio is on tell them it’s unacceptable. The bbqs sounds more anti social than noise.

kids being kids during normal waking hours is not antisocial behaviour. you shouldn't be having to put up with this constant harassment from your unreasonable neighbours. they seem to be incapable of living in normal society and should maybe move to a gated retirement community where children are forbidden. you need to ignore them as far as possible and warn them off harassing you for perfectly normal behaviour.

The children do spend time every day indoors; just not all day at the moment. On the day of the complaint, I think they went outdoors at 10 or 10.30, and they definitely spent an hour indoors making Easter cards with me, and another hour(ish) reading magazines. And DH took them out for an hour's exercise, which was after the complaint, but he has been doing that every 2 or 3 days since lockdown anyway. There was probably more time indoors, but those were the big blocks of time I'm confident that they weren't outside.

The neighbours did ask us to get the boys' hearing checked a couple of years ago as they said that might be making them loud. DS1 had had glue ear a bit when he was little, so I thought it was a fair point. I went to the doctor and explained, who asked whether I thought they had difficulty hearing, to which I answered no. Then she laughed at me, told me it was just boys being boys and refused to test either of them.

Dear Neighbour,

I will no longer be entertaining your twattish complaints, so please don't try to speak to me again about it.

We have done nothing wrong, my children are behaving appropriately in their own garden, and my children will continue to play in their garden as I see fit.

Have a nice day.

I think there has to be a bit of give and take. Mine is out a lot and she can be noisy but I try and make sure she also has time inside. Generally my neighbours like to eat their dinner outside in the summer at 7 and mine would be inside getting ready for bed so they have their guaranteed peaceful time then.

Ultimately, if you buy a property in a family area, there is a chance there will be children playing in the garden so I wouldn’t stop them playing out but if you’ve had to tell them off 30 plus times for being noisy, they could probably do with a bit of inside time to give your neighbours some day time peace.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all, I would just stop engaging with them about the noise at all.

Something like "We are entitled to make noise in our garden and won't discuss specifics with you further, please stop complaining to us". They sound like they just fucking hate kids to be honest.

Mumsnet is full of older people with a rose-tinted view of their own childrearing days.

It doesn't mean OP's kids are being too noisy if she tells them to quiet down 35-40 times a day. It could very well mean she's feeling the pressure from her unreasonable, child hating neighbours who just don't want them in the house next door. So she's magnifying it in her head when actually, the children are perfectly entitled to play reasonably in their own garden.

she should be able to read a book in her garden at 6pm without hearing our children

I don't think this is an unrealistic expectation tbh, and I do feel a bit sorry for your neighbours. I say that as someone with three children in the same situation as you re retired neighbours and lack of kids.

We live by a few rules to make sure we're not ruining our neighbour's time spent in the garden.

1. No garden time before 9.30am and after 5.30pm
2. If they're screaming and shouting, they get one warning and then told to come inside until they can calm down (I think this may be your issue)
3. No balls bounced off the fence or high in the air.

As someone who home educates I think you need to be a bit more aware of how much noise they make. They're there all day, your neighbours don't get a break from the noise at all.

I don't ever tell them twice in a row to be quiet. If they aren't quieter when I ask them to, they come straight indoors. Sometimes that can be noisy in itself if my youngest is being unco-operative, but my feeling is that it's better to have some noise from the protesting child who is being marched indoors against their will with the parent saying "I can't let you stay out here when you're making that noise, because it's not fair on the neighbours" than it is to fail to deal with the incident that led you to bring them in.

Book. Glass of wine. Comfy garden chair. Noise cancelling headphones playing restful classical music. I highly recommend it.

It sounds like they are the ones being unreasonable but it's difficult to know if your children are particularly loud or outside most of the day. Once something starts to annoy it can quickly become impossible to ignore and it seems your neighbours have reached this point.

Once things are back to normal it might be an idea to try to build bridges. If they had a relationship with your boys (some interest shared or help with a 'project') the neighbours might not just view them as an irritant. But if they are determined to be annoyed by something or other then there's not much you can do.

My only other thought is that maybe you could have offered them the soundproofing boards? :)

We hear our neighbours swearing loudly at their kids and other neighbours smell their smoke (not cigarettes!). I think kids playing nicely noise is perfectly acceptable and to be expected at the moment

And I'm not telling them 30-40 times a day to be quiet now. That was a couple of years ago when my youngest was having real issues with low frustration tolerance. He is much, much better nowadays.

Oh yes minis I do agree these are not normal times.

I see you home educate your children. Perhaps ask the neighbours, as they are retired, if they would like to read to your kids, or if they have a skill in maths or geography or are well travelled they could help. Of course you shouldn't leave them alone with them but by engaging with them they may become more friendly and understanding. This would also lighten your load a bit. Just a thought!

We should have thought of that, Someoneonlyyouknow. :)

I think it was about 4pm when they came round, so it had been 5.5 or 6 hours since they'd first gone outside in the morning, and at least 2 hours of that was indoors. Maybe more; I wasn't particularly noticing until after the neighbours came round.

When it's not lockdown, we're not here all day every day. Home education doesn't mean being confined to the house, and we'd all find it pretty miserable if we were. :) Of course, we are home more than the average, but we do spend a reasonable amount of time out and about under normal circumstances. Half a day of us being here on a termtime weekday is quiet because, unlike many home edders, we do formal lessons which means the children aren't being loud and annoying.

I guess lockdown has made things even worse, because, for example, normally I do all the shopping, taking the children with me, but now DH is having to do it all because the supermarkets won't let children in. So that's even more time the children are spending at home relative to normal. Tough times.

I think you could be a little more understanding here. We have grandchildren so I know that they can be loud but if your boys are out in the garden all the time practically when can your neighbours enjoy some peace and quiet to read a book or just enjoy some quiet time? Whilst your boys have a right to play in the garden the outside noise would be an issue for me if it was all the time. Can you not have some indoor time so at least others get to enjoy some peace and quiet in their garden? Especially if you normally home school so they are always at home. That would irritate me enough to complain too and I am normally tolerant of neighbours playing music or kids playing. Different if it was a family who had noisy kids too.

Noise cancelling headphones are a great idea btw.

"There isn't any goodwill on their part because they think we don't care and do nothing. The wife told us once she should be able to read a book in her garden at 6pm without hearing our children. They wrote to us once complaining about the noise, and complaining that we never told our children to be quiet. For the next 3 days, I did nothing different from normal but I made a note of every time I asked the boys to be quieter because of the neighbours. I did so 35-40 times a day (!), and that was pretty typical of what I was doing before they complained."

The thing with using this as an example is, you later say that during this period your DC was screaming a lot. In which case it was perfectly reasonable of your neighbours to have run out of goodwill and be cheesed off with DC who are homeschooled so with no respite, screaming a lot, and not having quiet screen time for stretches (screens are not all bad, OP). With this history, it's obviously become a sore subject and will still be a flashpoint now even if the screaming has abated, and you've stopped the early morning noise (which you should have known was not on, and the fact that you're so chilled about it makes me think you're probably not a great judge of what's acceptable). The fact that you bought insulation is no help as you can't use it, so the problem will go on. They will be overly touchy about it and your DC will be overly provoking them - compared to most DC who go to school, have more indoor quieter activities, and have parents who enforce 'be quiet' more effectively. Honestly I would read to the kids and have them play Top Trumps indoors instead of being out there all the time. But with your lifestyle choices and different level of sensitivity, you might as well just dial up your chilledness and brazen it out.

So glad its not just me.
I get that noise is annoying. But surely kids playing or doing sport in garden is reasonable esp as they have no option of going to the park.
I think everyone is a bit anxious and irritable at the moment.
We have apologised but am def not going to stop them playing in the garden

They sound a nightmare. Kids are going to make a certain amount of noise outside and as long as it's not screeching/ bickering (which you've said it's not), then that's fine.