Do I tell her about her teeth?

[MrsNoah2020]

My very dear friend (mid-40s) recently ended a relationship after 5 years and is back on the dating scene. She's pretty clued up about online dating, but having a lot of knock backs after initial meet ups and has asked me if there is something she could do differently.

My honest opinion is that fixing her teeth would make a huge difference. Her dental hygiene is fine, but her teeth are very crowded and uneven, and also pretty stained. I have to be honest, if she was a man I was thinking of dating, they would put me right off. But I don't know whether to tell her. Yes, she has asked me and yes, we have a close enough relationship that I would tell her if an item of clothing didn't suit her, if she asked for my opinion. But teeth are so much more personal, And, of course I don't know for sure what is putting men off. Maybe she has just been unlucky and met a load of twunts.

To be clear, I am not considering saying, "Your teeth are awful, and probably putting men off". We have another friend who has had hers whitened and it looks really good, so I was thinking of saying, "How about having your teeth whitened to increase your confidence, like Sarah has?" and then hope the dentist suggests straightening too.

My friend is a lovely person, I hate that something so superficial as teeth are important but the reality is that, when you are first meeting someone, they are something you notice. On the other hand, I am worried that, if I say anything, even very tactfully, she will feel gutted that people have been judging her teeth all these years.

AIBU to think I should try, very tactfully, to tell her?

I don't agree with people saying she has necessarily already noticed. I think the staining has built up gradually over the years.

Come off it. This is like someone saying my fat friend has asked me if she could do anything differently to attract a man. I'm thinking of telling her to lose weight but just gently. I don't think she's noticed how fat she is because the weight has crept on gradually over the years.

Women are generally very VERY well aware of their appearance because we are socialised around attractiveness to me.

She will know her teeth aren't great. Just as people who are over weight know they could do with losing some pounds.

If people haven't done something about an aspect of their appearance that they could change (bad teeth and being overweight are only two examples) there is always a reason. You telling her won't change that.

*socialised round attractiveness to men that should say

Some people just have teeth with more of a tendency to discolour over time. It's not a hyygiene issue or a cleaning issue. Red wine, smoking and black coffee don't help, but they're not the whole story.

My teeth discoloured significantly over the years. I had them whitened gently (not too white, just to lighten them a bit) and they just looked so much better. My whole face looked brighter and more healthy. I have it re-done every few years.

My mum has never had her teeth whitened and they are literally brown. It looks grim (although obviously I would never comment unless she asked me to). I think it's happened so gradually that she just hasn't noticed.

I wouldn't date a man with brown teeth. I just couldn't fancy him. Call me shallow, but everyone makes decisions on people's fanciability based at least partly on their physical selves.

When i saw you headling op, i thought you had lost you nans false teeth lol

The thing is if she hasn’t generally, throughout her life, had a problem finding a date, then it would be safe to assume her teeth don’t put people off being close to her.
She’d be well aware her teeth are not perfectly aligned and she may or may not be bothered about it. Either way, you suggesting it won’t make a real difference to that particular issue. She’s either at peace with it or wishes or planning to invest in teeth straightening. If anything, she might start feeling very self conscious about it and uneasy around you.
For what it’s worth a few of my friends got braces when they turned 50. In all honesty, I never realised they needed to straighten their teeth as there were no noticeable issues but obviously they felt it was something that would help with their appearance and I guess it is a relatively quick, safe and permanent fix which enhances one’s appearance when everything else starts getting a bit more mature looking and can’t really be repaired. Your friend might do the same in the future.

To the poster who was wondering why hasn’t everybody got straight teeth because it’s free etc - it’s not free in every country, it’s not free for all age groups, it’s not free for cosmetic reasons and not all parents see this as a priority. The friend is well over 18 so even if she did qualify for such free dental treatment when she was growing up, her parents might have not known or prioritised this issue, and maybe at the time wearing braces was more of a self esteem issue than miss-aligned teeth.

Stained teeth are a different issue though even though technically they are clean and healthy. That’s the times we live in! If you truly believe that would make a difference, perhaps you could bring this up in a round about way if you are in the habit of discussing self care. You may not need your own teeth whitened but you could always have an imaginary friend who got hers at x clinic where it cost so much and the results were amazing - do a bump it of research first. If you, yourself wouldn’t mind giving teeth whitening a go (I’m not saying you need it but lots of people want to try it), you could always tell her you are thinking of doing it but are a bit apprehensive so maybe you could do it together. You can’t do anymore really.

However, I don’t think teeth are the main problem. Online dating sounds a bit like pot luck to me so until she finds the right one, there’d be lots of dates which don’t lead to anything.

Tbh if she can’t get on in dating due to her teeth, she’s meeting the wrong types.
People that matter don’t mind. Those that mind don’t matter,

Braces are free and have always been so why do ( British) people have crocked, goofy or crowed teeth? I had teeth removed and braces as a teenager, genuine question, ( other than cases of child neglect) why haven’t others?

Not always, only if your teeth are bad enough on the NHS scale. Then as you grow older and wisdom teeth come in they can push teeth forward and increase previously minor over crowding.

People that matter don’t mind. Those that mind don’t matter,

^ this. She is meeting up with the wrong type of people, plenty of people with crooked teeth and other imperfections are in relationships.

Fuck me, there are some posters here piling on the OP who are clearly hard of reading.
Her friend ASKED her what she could change. OP hasn’t woken up randomly and decided nickname her friend snaggletooth.
O0, I think you sound lovely that you’ve given this so much thought and ignore the PP above who said you aren’t a good friend. I think you are going about answering the question in a thoughtful and kind way.
You know your friend better than us. If you believe your friend it genuinely asking for feedback, I think the approach suggested up thread about the teeth whitening or putting that show on are great.
Alternatively- I do have friends who would ask this only wanting to hear that there’s nothing you would change, and that’s fine too. If she just wants reassurance then do that.
And I agree with you - teeth when I was dating were very important to me (not in the sense of crowding but yellow and stained does make me wonder about a persons hygeine)

Braces are mostly not free on the nhs and certainly not for cosmetic reasons here is a sliding scale and you have to have a malformed nite or similar to qualify.

I really can't understand how so many posters say this friend must be aware of her teeth.

Why do you believe that? She may think they are fine, or unimportant.

If she was aware, wouldn't she be saying to her friend 'I wonder if it's my teeth that put them off?'

I also don't believe that it's insignificant and she is meeting the 'wrong kind of man.'

For most people, I think a mouthful of badly stained teeth would be offputting.

I have known very attractive friends / women who have paid a fortune for all kinds of treatments , haircuts and colour, and clothes to help them look 'better', yet don't seem to consider their teeth.

@MrsNoah2020

One thing that struck me is, does your friend have an 'honest' and up to date photo of herself on these sites? Is she showing her teeth? Because if not, that could be one issue.

Of course it might not be anything to do with her appearance at all! It could be she is boring, talks about herself all night, and so on. (Playing devil's advocate here :))

Maybe you could approach it by asking her what her red lines are with men; what would put her off at a first date in terms of appearance and personality.

Might this lead to a discussion about teeth, personal hygiene, etc?

If not, and you know her best, you might have to be really blunt and say sorry if it hurts her feelings, but, as she's asked, you wonder if her teeth which have looked more stained lately, could be a factor?

You are her friend and if no one else can tell her are you okay with her carrying on being rejected and not knowing teeth might be an issue? I'd far rather be told something that might hurt a bit at first than not be told and wonder what the hell was putting men off.

@MrsNoah2020 I meant to add..the crossed and uneven teeth are one thing, but the colour and stains are another. Maybe if you can approach the staining first, it could lead to a wider discussion? Maybe you could say you felt your own teeth were getting stained as a conversation starter?

Re the crowded teeth I guess it's all relative.

I hate my teeth, but when I've talked to family and close friends about having them fixed, they all (genuinely I believe) say they are okay and not as bad as I imagine.

I have had them whitened which I'm happy with.

In my 50s I started getting quotes and advice for straightening. One dentist said they could be fixed with Invisalign but might need to shave bits off my teeth. Another said I'd need 2 teeth out and a fixed brace for 18 months. The cost was going to £3K ish.

I have not so far taken the plunge, not because of cost but mainly the long term discomfort issue with fixed braces and also the fact my honest friends say they are not as noticeable as I think.

Just passing this on in case it helps any conversation you might have.

Good luck- you sound lovely.

Listen, orthodontic work on an overcrowded mouth and uneven teeth is no walk in the park! I had that done in the 90s - 4 molars extracted, braces for about 3 or 4 years and religiously wearing a retainer for a couple of years after that. And even so, my bottom row is uneven again as the teeth that were rotated round have started to move back to their original positions, the buggers.

I’m glad my parents arranged for me to have it done as I had a hideous overbite and my top teeth (on which I had a wire brace) have basically stayed where they are and my smile looks nice. But it was painful and a faff and I wouldn’t blame her if she CBA.

However, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t find a nice way to mention her teeth to her - particularly if she has asked.

It does depend on the person though @Piglet89. My mum had braces and extractions when she was 75 and broke some kind of medical/ dental record! Her dentist showed photos to his students. She was so sick of her crooked and protruding teeth.
She had a fixed brace for 18 months and has never regretted it. She still uses a retainer occasionally at night (now in her 90s.)

That’s an outlying case though. Someone having braces at that age is rare. The more of your life you have left, the more time you have for your teeth to return to their original position.

As your mum is older, the orthodontist probably factored that into the length of time she’d need to wear the braces and the retainer. Fair play to her though!

It's not always an easy 6 month fix with payment options. To fix my teeth I had to have extractions under anaesthetic for my impacted wisdom teeth, 2 years of fixed braced and major surgery during which both my Jaws were broken and rearranged. I was on a liquid diet for 6 weeks and off work for the same time.

My friends all said my teeth 'weren't that bad'. So don't presume it is quick and easy to fix, unless of course you are an orthodontist or a max fac surgeon.

Are you on glue OP? Given everything that's going on right now you think now is an appropriate time to bring it up when your friend literally couldn't do anything about it even if she wanted to?

Are you on glue OP? Given everything that's going on right now you think now is an appropriate time to bring it up when your friend literally couldn't do anything about it even if she wanted to?

Can you point me to the post where I said I was going to bring it up now?

I am starting to think half of MN is hitting the vodka around 9 am. How else to account for all the people who want to get REALLY REALLY ANGRY about something an OP has not said?

Ignore, OP. Many on MN are obviously drinking while spying on their neighbours ATM.

Maybe before you go as far as discussing her teeth, start off with what she talks about on these dates. You also say she very successful and financially secure that can be off putting to some men and therefore she's dodged a few bullets. It could be she's just not met a good match yet and needs to give it more time. Maybe she should just take a break from focusing on dating. I'm overly aware of other people's teeth but that's to do with an obsessive mother and my jobs over the years.

I’d steer clear of total honesty to be quite honest. I recently had my teeth straightened with invisalign after years of self consciousness. Sadly, comments people made to me about my teeth in innocence never left my head, hence being one of the reasons I took the plunge. It is very expensive and luckily I was left some money by a relative to get it done, so if it’s something she couldn’t immediately afford to fix, I just wouldn’t.

has she the resources to fix them? Fixing teeth can be fairly expensive

Be awful to say something and then her not be able to something about it?

I had train tracks done shortly after I turned 17. By that point I was too old to have them done on the NHS, who refused to do them any earlier than that as I still had some baby teeth.

In the end I had the final baby tooth extracted, alongside one of my adult incisors (I have a small jaw which couldn't fit all my adult teeth) and my teeth straightened privately for £2k. This was in the mid-noughties.

It was well worth doing as I was finally able to smile. The orthodontist wanted to break my jaw to reset it, as did I, but my parents refused, so the train tracks were a compromise. They were off 11 months later, just before I turned 18 and went to Uni.

I can't imagine the OP's friend is unaware of her teeth. I was very very aware of mine, and my over bite and refused to smile open mouthed because of them. They were nice and clean though, largely because I was only 17 and didn't drink tea, red wine and coffee! I'm sure they would have been worse 20 years later.

If she can afford it it is worth having them straightened, I love my teeth and my smile now. It is expensive though and can take several years to straighten. I don't think I would mention it though OP, I know she asked but I fear it won't go well.

Well, I think it's pinging a real pain point for a lot of people, tbh.

Teeth are pretty fraught. It's something that people feel absolutely fine about openly sharing their disgust/horror/scorn about, so it's hard to pretend to yourself that it's not a big deal. I still remember the Big Book of British Teeth on the Simpsons Halloween episode when I was a child. And they are right there on your face and can't really be disguised. To make my teeth acceptable I would have to spend around two years and at least twenty thousand pounds. I don't have it, so my poverty is written on my face for all to see. I have to take it with me into every situation. And quite apart from that, they hurt and it's hard to eat, so I can't forget about them in the same way I can elide my other imperfections. It's often not JUST a matter of aesthetics with teeth.

That's what provoked my response, which I think was definitely robust but was intended to express to you the inner feelings you might provoke in your friend, which I think is a big value of these anonymous forums - you get a peek inside other people, the part of the conversation you can't normally hear.

Of course you actually know her, so you have to weigh up what I know with what you know and make your decision. I'll never know what you do! It's entirely in your hands, OP.

To be honest, I wouldn't say anything. When she asked you if she could 'do anything differently' did she mean about her appearance? If someone asked me that I would assume they meant about their actions, eg. should they 'double text' if the love interest doesn't reply, should she go on a date somewhere different than usual, should she call before meeting, etc.

So are you sure this isn't what she means? If she does she might get a shock if you start telling her to change her teeth.

I wouldn’t talk to her about it now when she can’t do anything about it, but leave it until the dentists are back up and running.

Maybe you could even say.. “hey dentists are doing non-essential again. Why don’t you treat yourself to a whitening treatment- maybe that will give you the confidence boost you need”

You could even try to find a local dentist with it on special and you could make out like you just stumbled across it?